Bug 143766 - Incoherent name assigned to the "Unordered List" command in LO 7.2
Summary: Incoherent name assigned to the "Unordered List" command in LO 7.2
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
(earliest affected) rc
Hardware: All Windows (All)
: medium normal
Assignee: Not Assigned
Depends on:
Blocks: Bullets-Numbering-Dialog
  Show dependency treegraph
Reported: 2021-08-07 08:55 UTC by Albert Acer
Modified: 2021-08-18 09:11 UTC (History)
4 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:
Regression By:

Screenshot 01 (167.80 KB, image/jpeg)
2021-08-07 08:58 UTC, Albert Acer
"Bullet List" Correct name instead of "Unordered List" (104.90 KB, image/jpeg)
2021-08-07 09:02 UTC, Albert Acer

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Description Albert Acer 2021-08-07 08:55:43 UTC
The "Unordered List" command induces LibreOffice users to error.

That name ("Unordered List") creates confusion and induces to error to the translators of the LO interface in other languages.

There is no reason to mislead the ordinary LO Writer user to think that when we use the "Unordered List" command, the result will be a list whose components lose the original order of the items when we create that same list with the "Ordered List" command or that the effect applying the command "Unordered List" will be the list of components without order, or a list with lack of order, or in any way a chaotic or disordered list. 

Steps to Reproduce:
1. Open LO Writer 7.2
2. Click on the "Format" Menu.
3. Clic on the "List" Submenu.
4. Click on the "Unordered List"
5. Write one by one the elements or components of the list and observe the 

Actual Results:
The name of the function or command "Unordered List" is inappropriate because it does not generate clutter with the components of the created list. The result is a bulleted list used to highlight the list items.

Expected Results:
Re-enable the name "Bulleted List" (which was fixed in all LibreOffice versions prior to 7.2) to create bulleted lists, instead of "Unordered List".

Reproducible: Always

User Profile Reset: Yes

Additional Info:
[Information automatically included from LibreOffice]
Locale: es
Module: TextDocument
[Information guessed from browser]
OS: Windows (All)
OS is 64bit: no
Comment 1 Albert Acer 2021-08-07 08:58:01 UTC
Created attachment 174122 [details]
Screenshot 01
Comment 2 Albert Acer 2021-08-07 09:02:26 UTC
Created attachment 174123 [details]
"Bullet List" Correct name instead of "Unordered List"
Comment 3 Albert Acer 2021-08-07 09:04:56 UTC
The name "Bulleted List" used in all previous versions of LibreOffice, including the 7.1 branch, was the most appropriate for working with lists whose components are identified by bullets instead of numbers or letters. Version 7.2 renamed the "Bulleted List" command to "Unordered List" which is inappropriate for reasons that will be explained below through screenshots and comments.
Comment 4 Albert Acer 2021-08-07 09:05:30 UTC
The fact is that when we LO Writer users build a list of components using the command "Ordered List" whose components, by default, are marked at the beginning with an Arabic number (1 2 3) and then if we completely select that same list and We apply the command "Unordered List", the result obtained is that same list with its components in exactly the same original order, where the only change we see is that on the left side, at the beginning of each line of text, corresponding to each component, Arabic numerals (1 2 3) are changed by bullets. Otherwise, the list of components maintains the same order. So, "Unordered List" should not be called that way but simply "Bulleted List" instead of "Unordered List" or in the worst case "Unnumbered List" because in this case what is relevant is the use of bullets instead of numbers, not the order of the components in the list.
Comment 5 Ming Hua 2021-08-07 09:08:06 UTC
The "Bullet => Unordered, Numbering => Ordered" term change is a result of bug 139667, with the wording chosen after input from many people, including the user experience team.  The bug also involves many UI changes besides these two terms.

I suggest you raise your concerns in that bug report instead.

Or, as an alternative (because I don't think it's possible to revert these changes this close to 7.2.0 release anyway), you can try to convince the Spanish translators to change the translation to avoid this "chaotic" meaning for "unordered list".  For example, I myself translated it to "list without ordinal numbering" for zh-CN UI.
Comment 6 Albert Acer 2021-08-07 09:27:58 UTC
I also very much agree with that translation you have provided. This is a matter of linguistics. That translation is also significantly better than "Unordered List". For example in Spanish it would be "Lista sin numeración".
Comment 7 Xisco Faulí 2021-08-10 17:27:05 UTC
Moving to NEW
Comment 8 Heiko Tietze 2021-08-18 09:11:10 UTC
A,B,C or I,I,III are not _numbered_ but ordered. That's why we changed the wording. The discussion should be in the mentioned ticket. 

Ming Hua found a good reference in bug 143712 comment #13:
> FWIW (I am not a native speaker either), "unordered list" sounds fine to me.
> Yes it may be misunderstood as "the order with which the items are listed
> may change", but that's not a common reading.  Merriam-Webster [1] has one
> (among many) definition for "ordered": having elements labeled by ordinal
> numbers.
> 1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ordered

My take => NAB