Bug 87720 - Default insert image anchor, wrapping, and spacing
Summary: Default insert image anchor, wrapping, and spacing
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
4.5.0.0.alpha0+ Master
Hardware: Other All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords: needsUXEval
: 104320 (view as bug list)
Depends on: 82873 102011 105302
Blocks: Anchor-and-Text-Wrap Writer-Images Options-Dialog-Writer
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Reported: 2014-12-25 23:48 UTC by Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired)
Modified: 2019-05-10 19:13 UTC (History)
12 users (show)

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Crash report or crash signature:


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Description Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2014-12-25 23:48:19 UTC
By default libreoffice inserts images as To Paragraph, Optimal and many users coming from other word processors are not familiar with LO's image insertion behaviour and may like to change this default behaviour. So i'd like to suggest that in Tools > Options > LibreOffice Writer > General, we add a section entitled 'Image Insert' and provide two drop down lists - 1) Anchor, 2) Text Wrap.

Defaults in other word processors:

MS Word - In Line (aka As Character)
WPS Writer - In Line (aka As Character)
Google Docs - In Line (aka As Character)
WordPerfect - Paragraph, Square/Both Sides (aka Paragraph, Parallel)
Abiword - In Line (aka As Character)
Calligra Words - Floating Free (aka To Page, Optimal)

Is there a reason why LO has decided to stick with this default anchor and wrapping preset for insertion of images?
Comment 1 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2014-12-26 12:34:31 UTC
Another setting worth providing options to is alignment, as presently, inserted images are always center aligned.
Comment 2 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2014-12-27 10:40:02 UTC
CCing iplaw and foss to add how iWork inserts an image.
Comment 3 Cor Nouws 2014-12-28 20:04:30 UTC
Hi Jay

Is MS Word - In Line _as_ character or _at_ character?

Two suggestions to work on this idea:
1. could we advice something wrt exchange of files with other word processors?
2. I think this on is interesting to ask on users@. Will do for Dutch language.

Cheers,
Cor
Comment 4 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2014-12-28 20:27:22 UTC
Hey Cor

(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #3)
> Is MS Word - In Line _as_ character or _at_ character?

MS Word calls it 'In Line', LO calls it 'As Character'.
Comment 5 A (Andy) 2015-01-02 17:38:22 UTC
(In reply to Jay Philips from comment #0)
> By default libreoffice inserts images as To Paragraph, Optimal and many
> users coming from other word processors are not familiar with LO's image
> insertion behaviour and may like to change this default behaviour. So i'd
> like to suggest that in Tools > Options > LibreOffice Writer > General, we
> add a section entitled 'Image Insert' and provide two drop down lists - 1)
> Anchor, 2) Text Wrap.
> 
> Defaults in other word processors:
> 
> MS Word - In Line (aka As Character)
> WPS Writer - In Line (aka As Character)
> Google Docs - In Line (aka As Character)
> WordPerfect - Paragraph, Square/Both Sides (aka Paragraph, Parallel)
> Abiword - In Line (aka As Character)
> Calligra Words - Floating Free (aka To Page, Optimal)
> 
> Is there a reason why LO has decided to stick with this default anchor and
> wrapping preset for insertion of images?

I would also like to have such an option.  Now, I always have to change from anchored To Paragraph to anchored As Character, because I normally need to have it anchored as character.  Therefore, this behaviour is currently very inconvenient for me.
Comment 6 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2015-01-02 18:53:33 UTC
Looking at the video and images sent to me by Alex and Steve, images inserted in iWork Pages are set to automatic wrapping (similar to LO's parallel wrap, but smarter) with automatic contour and 12pt (0.42 cm) spacing and an anchor of 'To Character'.

After seeing the spacing being applied in Pages, i went to check if MSO did the same and yes it does. MSO inserts an image with a default 0.13" (0.33 cm or 3.69 pt) spacing on the left and right, which is does not take effect when an image is anchored 'As Character' or wrapped as 'None'.
Comment 7 Cor Nouws 2015-01-03 10:12:06 UTC
what popup up in my mind (sorry for that ;) ) to check for this issue:

- what is the behaviour when a paragraph with an image crosses the page border, because of adding/deleting content above it?
- is there a difference when exporting to doc(x)?
- in one of the choices more stable in settings when moving the image in the document?
Things like that.
Of course this focus is wider then just: what do the others do, but has important aspects too for user experience.
Comment 8 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2015-01-03 22:30:11 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #7)
> - what is the behaviour when a paragraph with an image crosses the page
> border, because of adding/deleting content above it?

Only when an image is anchored 'To Page' does it not move with the content it is attached to, as its position is fixed on that particular page.

> - is there a difference when exporting to doc(x)?

Doc(x) doesnt translate 1 to 1 between LO's anchor settings (bug 49179). Microsoft doesnt present users with both anchor and wrap options by default. They show a list of wrap options, all of which are anchored 'To Character' though it never shows the anchor in the interface, except for 'In Line' wrap which is anchored 'As Character'.

> - is one of the choices more stable in settings when moving the image in the
> document?

Setting anchor to 'To Page', 'To Paragraph' and 'To Character', all act the same way when moving an image on a page, only that 'To Page', the image doesnt move along with text movement.

> Of course this focus is wider then just: what do the others do, but has
> important aspects too for user experience.

MS Word, iWork and Google Docs use 'To Character' when they allow an image to be wrapped, but most dont show the anchor position indicator on the page.
Comment 9 Cor Nouws 2015-01-04 20:51:51 UTC
(In reply to Jay Philips from comment #8)

> > - is one of the choices more stable in settings when moving the image in the
> > document?
> 
> Setting anchor to 'To Page', 'To Paragraph' and 'To Character', all act the
> same way when moving an image on a page, only that 'To Page', the image
> doesnt move along with text movement.

I didn't talk about a stable position. I meant when a paragraph moves with an image in that paragraph. When that crosses a page, at some moment...
Does that differ with one or the other option..
Comment 10 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2015-01-05 01:35:39 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #9)
> I didn't talk about a stable position. I meant when a paragraph moves with
> an image in that paragraph. When that crosses a page, at some moment...
> Does that differ with one or the other option..

When an image is anchored as 'To Paragraph', 'To Character', or 'As Character' and the movement from page to page is exactly the same with 'To Paragraph' and 'To Character', while 'As Character' acts different. With 'To Paragraph' and 'To Characer', an image can appear over the page's margin when its position not enough text from the paragraph has moved onto the previous or next page, while this doesnt happen with 'As Character'.
Comment 11 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2015-03-04 10:12:55 UTC
Kendy had suggested getting rid of anchor 'to character' and Matthias stated there were use cases for it and provided the following document as an example.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_FrHYxnQ3axR0pfUzQ2T05FcTg&authuser=0
Comment 12 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2015-03-22 10:10:55 UTC
On of the benefits of anchoring 'as character' is that when you add a caption for the image, the image stays in the frame, rather than being able to move outside of the frame's borders.
Comment 13 Robinson Tryon (qubit) 2016-08-25 05:27:00 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 14 Cor Nouws 2016-09-09 20:55:39 UTC
wrt anchoring and wrapping: would it be an idea to conclude that after more investigation wrt interoperability?
It's not per see sure that 'just' having the same default value as another application, makes interoperability better.
Then we can keep this issue for that and use another for spacing..
Comment 15 Heiko Tietze 2016-09-10 07:52:45 UTC
From bug 102011:

When wrapping text around an image, the text will touch or almost touch the image by default.  To add whitespace one must:

* Double click on the picture
* Click on "borders"
* Enable a border
* Set line style to something, if it's on none
* Set color to white (or your page background)
* Now, the "spacing to contents" box unghosts.  Check "syncronize" and dial all four numbers to zero.
* Now uncheck "syncronize" and distance to the direction you need (e.g. left or right depending on where the image is place).

This workaround has been good for many revisions of libreOffice.  Could it be made easier?  Having "spacing to contents" start out enabled would be a good start.
Comment 16 Heiko Tietze 2016-09-10 07:53:33 UTC
*** Bug 102011 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 17 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-09-10 12:16:20 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #14)
> wrt anchoring and wrapping: would it be an idea to conclude that after more
> investigation wrt interoperability?

We dont have any interop issues with anchoring and wrapping, so not an issue for whatever default we choose.

> It's not per see sure that 'just' having the same default value as another
> application, makes interoperability better.

The default setting is about choosing what is best for users and not about interop.

> Then we can keep this issue for that and use another for spacing..

As it is wrap spacing, it falls under wrapping which isnt another issue.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #15)
> From bug 102011:
> 
> When wrapping text around an image, the text will touch or almost touch the
> image by default.  To add whitespace one must:

As stated in that bug, using border spacing isnt the way to achieve wrap spacing, as you would need to first enable borders to be able to then add border spacing.
Comment 18 Cor Nouws 2016-09-10 14:05:35 UTC
Hé :)

(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #17)

> We dont have any interop issues with anchoring and wrapping, so not an issue
> for whatever default we choose.

The way in image is anchored by default, influences how it behaves when saved as Ms.doc(x).
It might well be that the default setting has influence on import of documents (have seen that with another setting in the past.)

> As it is wrap spacing, it falls under wrapping which isnt another issue.

I mean wrapping and anchoring as it influences saving as doc(x) and work in other office suites.
Comment 19 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-09-10 17:36:15 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #18)
> The way in image is anchored by default, influences how it behaves when
> saved as Ms.doc(x).

Not doubt it does. :D

> It might well be that the default setting has influence on import of
> documents (have seen that with another setting in the past.)

Well that would be an import bug. :D

> I mean wrapping and anchoring as it influences saving as doc(x) and work in
> other office suites.

That is an export issue and the focus here is about setting the best default for LO users.
Comment 21 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-09-10 22:14:28 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #20)
> FYI
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.
> cgi?cmdtype=dorem&list_id=632697&namedcmd=RDC_W_NotResolved_Frame_Image_Objec
> t&remaction=run

Got the message "The search named RDC_W_NotResolved_Frame_Image_Object does not exist."
Comment 22 Cor Nouws 2016-09-11 05:45:01 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #21)

> Got the message "The search named RDC_W_NotResolved_Frame_Image_Object does
> not exist."

I tried to set it available in my prefs, but that went wrong somehow, Does it work now?
Comment 23 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-09-11 08:31:17 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #22)
> I tried to set it available in my prefs, but that went wrong somehow, Does
> it work now?

Still no luck. :(
Comment 25 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-09-11 18:19:11 UTC
@Cor: Not sure how a list of import and export ms doc bugs relates to this issue. This issue isnt about interop and it would be no different than a user setting what we choose as default and import/export with that. We can test to make sure interop with ms works as expected for whatever we decide is the default but that wouldnt be the priority of this issue.
Comment 26 Cor Nouws 2016-09-11 20:23:22 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #25)
> @Cor: Not sure how a list of import and export ms doc bugs relates to this
> issue. 

The way in image is anchored by default, influences how it behaves when saved as Ms.doc(x). It might well be that the default setting has influence on import of documents (have seen that with another setting in the past.) This issue therefore is inevitably related with interop.
Comment 27 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-10-19 23:59:04 UTC
Looking at bug 100748, it seems that when inserting an image into a table, its default should be to insert it as a character rather then to paragraph.
Comment 28 Cor Nouws 2016-10-20 08:12:56 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #27)
> Looking at bug 100748, it seems that when inserting an image into a table,
> its default should be to insert it as a character rather then to paragraph.

From what I hear from MSOffice-users-experience, that should be the default in normal text too.
Comment 29 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2016-10-20 13:16:33 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #28)
> From what I hear from MSOffice-users-experience, that should be the default
> in normal text too.

Well just because that is what MSO defaults to doesnt mean it is the best solution for users.

The first question that we need to address here is whether users should be able to move an inserted image or not after inserting, because As Character doesnt allow this and the other anchor options do.

If i look at my last few documents i created,

1) if i insert an image on a blank line, inserting it as As Character works fine, and then i center the image if it doesnt take up the complete width of the document.

2) if i insert an image in a paragraph, inserting it as To Paragraph works fine, as i normally then resize the image if needed and then right align the image with the margin.
Comment 30 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2017-04-21 21:38:02 UTC
*** Bug 104320 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 31 Christophe Strobbe 2019-05-10 12:25:22 UTC
Another drawback of anchoring images "To paragraph" by default is that this makes them harder to select by keyboard users. In other words, this issue is also an accessibility issue.
The Accessible Digital Office Document (ADOD) Project recommends anchoring images "As Character" : https://adod.idrc.ocadu.ca/oowriter#tech4