Description: Bonjour, Serait-il possible de corriger une faute de frappe dans le menu de LibreOffice : Dans Insertion - Marque de formatage - insérer une espace insécable. Extrait du dictionnaire français Espace : nom féminin (typographie): Blanc servant à séparer les mots.Une espace fine. Note Technique Le nom féminin désignait à l’origine la petite lame de métal, moins épaisse que les caractères, qui servait à espacer les mots en typographie. Aujourd’hui, le nom désigne le blanc laissé entre les mots lors de la photocomposition, qui est généralement informatisée. Actual Results: le mot espace est écrit au masculin ! En typographie il s'écrit au féminin : une espace Expected Results: idem Reproducible: Always User Profile Reset: No OpenGL enabled: Yes Additional Info: Bonjour, Serait-il possible de corriger une faute de frappe dans le menu de LibreOffice : Dans Insertion - Marque de formatage - insérer une espace insécable. Extrait du dictionnaire français Espace : nom féminin (typographie): Blanc servant à séparer les mots.Une espace fine. Note Technique Le nom féminin désignait à l’origine la petite lame de métal, moins épaisse que les caractères, qui servait à espacer les mots en typographie. Aujourd’hui, le nom désigne le blanc laissé entre les mots lors de la photocomposition, qui est généralement informatisée. Vous remerciant par avance, Bien cordialement René Le Joncour
Translation: Description: Hello, Would it be possible to correct a typo in the LibreOffice menu: In Insert - Formatting Mark - insert a nonbreaking space. From the French dictionary Space : female name (typography): White used to separate the words. A fine space. Technical Note The female name originally referred to the small metal blade, less thick than the characters, which was used to space the words in typography. Today, the name refers to the blank left between the words during the photocomposition, which is usually computerized. Actual Results: the word space is written in the masculine! In typography it is written in the feminine: a space Expected Results: idem Reproducible: Always User Profile Reset: No OpenGL enabled: Yes Additional Info: Hello, Would it be possible to correct a typo in the LibreOffice menu: In Insert - Formatting Mark - insert a nonbreaking space. From the French dictionary Space : female name (typography): White used to separate the words. A fine space. Technical Note The female name originally referred to the small metal blade, less thick than the characters, which was used to space the words in typography. Today, the name refers to the blank left between the words during the photocomposition, which is usually computerized. Thanking you in advance, Best regards René Le Joncour
Sophie/Jean-Baptiste: I'd say NOTABUG here since it exists "espace fine insécable". It would be weird to talk about "un espace insécable" and "une espace fine insécable" and it seems there's no reference to "un espace fin insécable". So feminine gender should stay here. René: I understand your point of view and I know that French is a language where there are so much exceptions but even if we're now in computer era, there are still lots of writings which will be printed and printing industry has its rules and convention.
Hi, In LO 7.1 and next 7.2, as UI translator, I used the menu entries Insérer un espace insécable Insérer un espace fin insécable The idea was to use a level of language understandable for each French speaking people, whatever its country is. This type of preciousness of language is unnecessary in a software interface and can be a source of confusion. Additionally, I am not aware of any bug report against LibreOffice 7.1 about the use of the masculine gender for space in "un espace [fin] insécable". Best regards. JBF
(In reply to Jean-Baptiste Faure from comment #3) > Hi, > > In LO 7.1 and next 7.2, as UI translator, I used the menu entries > Insérer un espace insécable > Insérer un espace fin insécable > > The idea was to use a level of language understandable for each French > speaking people, whatever its country is. > This type of preciousness of language is unnecessary in a software interface > and can be a source of confusion. > Additionally, I am not aware of any bug report against LibreOffice 7.1 about > the use of the masculine gender for space in "un espace [fin] insécable". > > Best regards. JBF Ok thank you for the feedback. I don't consider this as preciousness rather like the origin, a bit like Greek and Latin are the main roots of the French language. Anyway, since I would have preferred keeping the feminine (and discovering LO contained "un espace fin insécable", I would have changed it to "une espace fine insécable"). I prefer letting you make the change.
I found this on wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_fine_ins%C3%A9cable
(In reply to BogdanB from comment #5) > I found this on wikipedia: > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_fine_ins%C3%A9cable Indeed, but I do not know if there is a consensus on this outside the French printing world. What do the Belgians, Quebecker and Swiss say about it for example? I need to take into account that we do not translate LibreOffice UI in French for French citizens only. So we have to choose a variant of the French language this is understandable and with at least as possible surprises for the French speakers community as large as possible. Best regards. JBF
I fully support Jean-Baptiste there
The word "space" associated with the masculine gender in the French user interface is a linguistic mistake as it is always feminine when the word refers to whitespace character in typography. The below links to major dictionaries confirm this: - Dictionnaire de l'Académie française: https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9E2612 - Dictionnaire Larousse: https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/espace/31014 - Dictionnaire Le Robert: https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/espace - Office québecois de la langue française: http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8361819 I am therefore positive: whatever the variety of the French language (Belgian, French, French Caribbean, Quebecois, Swiss, etc.) the word "space" is always feminine when it comes to typography, and writing it in the masculine form is a proof of lack of culture or professionalism. So we say: - Une espace - Une espace insécable - Une espace fine insécable Best regards.
For those who are not familiar, the gender of a word can completely change its meaning and definition. This is the case here, since the word "space" in the masculine form refers to a notion of extent (temporal or dimensional), or to the part outside the earth's atmosphere; but not to the horizontal space character in typography. Not to sound arrogant, but I'm puzzled to find such a blatant misspelling in the LibreOffice suite.
(In reply to phv from comment #8) > The word "space" associated with the masculine gender in the French user > interface is a linguistic mistake as it is always feminine when the word > refers to whitespace character in typography. > > The below links to major dictionaries confirm this: > > - Dictionnaire de l'Académie française: > https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9E2612 > > - Dictionnaire Larousse: > https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/espace/31014 > > - Dictionnaire Le Robert: > https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/espace > > - Office québecois de la langue française: > http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8361819 we (FR translation team) know those resources, thank you > > I am therefore positive: whatever the variety of the French language > (Belgian, French, French Caribbean, Quebecois, Swiss, etc.) the word "space" > is always feminine when it comes to typography, and writing it in the > masculine form is a proof of lack of culture or professionalism. seems you missed https://www.dictionnairedesfrancophones.org/ where it's noted as either masculine and feminine because in some French speaking countries it is masculine. Monde francophone Nom, masculin, féminin Typographie Petite pièce de fonte, plus basse que la lettre, qui sert à séparer les mots l'un de l'autre. So I still support Jean-Baptiste choices here to serve all our users whatever the lack of culture and professionalism we have :-)
(In reply to sophie from comment #10) > seems you missed https://www.dictionnairedesfrancophones.org/ where it's > noted as either masculine and feminine because in some French speaking > countries it is masculine. > Monde francophone > Nom, masculin, féminin > Typographie > Petite pièce de fonte, plus basse que la lettre, qui sert à séparer les mots > l'un de l'autre. > > So I still support Jean-Baptiste choices here to serve all our users > whatever the lack of culture and professionalism we have :-) It's rather strange that this same site indicates as source the wiktionary, which itself specifies that this word is feminine. So I'd say it's a bad match because all the words "space" are indicated as masculine and feminine whatever the definition. When I talk about lack of culture, I mean that such a mistake would depreciate a professional or administrative document. Yet, it is surprising to find it in LibreOffice when the French translation of the user interface is very good. I myself have contributed to translations and I have always used the feminine for this definition, according to a rule learned and repeated at school, and confirmed in the most famous French dictionaries. This gender rule is common enough in the French-speaking world to remove any doubt, so let's not make the exception the usual.
More links to reference dictionaries in France and Quebec: - Dictionnaire CNTRL (from the CNRS): https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/espace - Dictionnaire Littré: https://www.littre.org/definition/espace - Dictionnaire Usito: https://usito.usherbrooke.ca/d%C3%A9finitions/espace - Dictionnaire Le Multidictionnaire (login required): https://www.multidictionnaire.com/accesmulti/multidictionnaire/ As a conclusion, there is no ambiguity that the word "espace" is feminine when it designates the typographic space character. Also note that Microsoft Office uses this gender. Incorrect spelling must be rectified both in the LibreOffice suite and help. For proofreaders: we write "une espace" when we refer to the space punctuation in typography ("une espace insécable", "une espace fine insécable", etc.); we write "un espacement" when we refer to the action or result of adding spacing or height between elements; finally we always write "un espace" when we don't refer to the typographic character. I'm therefore confirming this report with the hope that this major spelling misuse will soon be addressed. Thank you in advance!
Closing as NotABug from comment #3 and comment #6. Best regards. JBF
For the first time ever, I reopen a bug report because my comments were ignored when it was closed. Did you take into account that I provided eight links to French and Quebec language reference dictionaries that answered the question you asked, i.e. is there a consensus on what gender should be used with "espace"? It was stated that the feminine genre was also used by Microsoft Office, Wikipedia and Wiktionary. Moreover, I point out that the results have not even been refuted by counterexamples; the masculine gender has never been properly documented for the definition, and yet you decide to leave this misuse inside LibreOffice. More generally, what is the point of discussing the issue when we are not listened to? Please, do not exlude evidence to reject a bug.