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Bug 131078 - What is the difference between a "Styles deck" and a "Styles window"?
Summary: What is the difference between a "Styles deck" and a "Styles window"?
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Documentation (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
4.1.0.4 release
Hardware: All All
: medium normal
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2020-03-02 18:49 UTC by sdc.blanco
Modified: 2020-03-10 08:58 UTC (History)
7 users (show)

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Description sdc.blanco 2020-03-02 18:49:11 UTC
Here are six help pages that refer, on the same page, to "Styles deck" and "Styles window"

https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/scalc/01/05100000.html
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/simpress/01/05100000.html
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/swriter/01/05140000.html
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/swriter/01/02110000.html
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/swriter/01/05130000.html
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/swriter/guide/header_pagestyles.html

1.  What is the difference between "Styles deck" and "Styles window"?

2.  Search for help pages with "Styles window" 
(I find 23 different help pages)

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/search?project=help&full=%22Styles+window%22&defs=&refs=&path=&hist=&type=&si=full

3.  Search for help pages with "Styles deck" (I find 5 different help pages)

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/search?project=help&full=%22Styles+deck%22&defs=&refs=&path=&hist=&type=&si=full

4.  If there is a difference, then shouldn't this be made clear in the documentation?  (I could not find any explanation)

If not a difference, then I would propose that at least for "style window" that the expression "Style window" is used consistently (and not "style deck")

This would involve changes in 8 files (covering all modules)
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/help/+/89787


Side comment:  Here are two more instances of "deck" and "window" in same help page (with other functions)

https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/scalc/01/04080000.html
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/shared/01/gallery.html
Comment 1 V Stuart Foote 2020-03-02 21:10:14 UTC
@Seth, its historical. 

If you remember that from OOo era through LO 4.1 with the introduction of the Sidebar (experimental) -- dialogs were .src based Windows each in their own frame. The Sidebar introduced a framework to hold essentially the same content (though the controls were refactored a fair bit) also in a frame.

But they are essentially interchangeable. Older help articles tend to carry "window", newer mostly use "deck".

Any reference to a "window", probably should have been reworded to "deck". Even when the Sidebar has been detached to float.
Comment 2 Heiko Tietze 2020-03-03 07:04:26 UTC
See also bug 73151. Guess we don't need input from UX here- the wording should be consistent in the UI.
Comment 3 sdc.blanco 2020-03-07 09:08:44 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)
> See also bug 73151. Guess we don't need input from UX here- the wording
> should be consistent in the UI.
@Heiko Understand the "consistency" principle (and I think that the UI does not refer either to "deck" or "window") -- but I am seeking concrete practical advice about which word(s) to use in relation to the actual situation for "Styles" in the help pages. (or maybe that is also considered UI?)

I understand that "deck" is the "technical" word used by UX- and developers.

1.  Is there a special reason or need to insist on using that word consistently in the documentation in relation to "Styles"?

Look at these three examples from LO Writer User Guide (where the author(s) have used "deck" and "window" interchangeably.

I would draw the conclusion that "mere users" (and documentation writers) call and understand this as a "window".

My concern is that all will be (unnecessarily) confused/uncertain if there is mention of both a "deck" and a "window" within a sentence or two from each other.

----
Ex. 1  (p. 179)

Follow these steps to create a new style from a selection:
1) Change the formatting of the object (paragraph, frame, and so on) to your liking.
2) From the icons at the top of the window, choose the category of style to create (paragraph, character, and so on).
3) In the document, select the item to save as a style.
4) Go back to the Styles and Formatting deck and click the New Style from Selection icon, then select New Style from the menu  

Ex. 2   (p. 191)

Style dialog
Open the Styles and Formatting deck in the Sidebar. Select the category of style you want to create by clicking on the appropriate icon in the top part of the Styles and Formatting deck.

Right-click in the window and select New from the context menu.

Ex. 3 (p. 207)

Creating a new page style
To create a new page style, open the Styles and Formatting deck and click the Page Styles icon.
Right-click anywhere in the window and select New.
  ----

2.  In the help pages where both Styles deck and Styles window appear, should they be left alone?  or if made consistent, to which word?

3.  Should the existing uses of "Styles window" be left unchanged (in the 23 help pages where it already appears) -- to avoid the need for retranslation?  

4.  Or should it be accepted to call this Sidebar object for "Styles window"  (in the help and documentation)?  (as a way to get consistency with the miniumum amount of change to help pages -- though partly in conflict with Writer guide - but not so hard to fix)

5. Or just leave everything as is?  (I have seen a note in another help page about how LibreOffice is inconsistent in its use of "Numbering Style" and "List Styles")
Comment 4 Heiko Tietze 2020-03-08 09:50:35 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #3)
> I am seeking concrete practical advice about which word(s) to use

Very much appreciated. The guideline on sidebars is here https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines/SideBar It defines a deck together with the title bar (where the styles toggle buttons reside) as what is placed within the tabs with some (collapsable) content panels. I have to admit that I always check these terms as well.

Not sure how much technical the word "deck" or "panel" is, sounds acceptable to me and it is translated anyway. "Window" is the whole application- misused sometimes for dialog, which is a secondary and smaller thing on top of the main window.

Cathy started a thread in the documentation mailinglist last year https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/msg13039.html Not sure what has been decided. And while searching for the message I also found something similar by Kees https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/msg12952.html
Comment 5 sdc.blanco 2020-03-08 11:55:10 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4)
> Not sure how much technical the word "deck" or "panel" is, sounds
> acceptable to me and it is translated anyway.
Have not seen "panel" used in relation to Styles.

The Styles "window" / "deck" issue is particularly salient in: https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/swriter/01/05140000.html

Notes about other translations of this page: 
a. The Danish translation does not refer to "deck" -- but consistently uses "window."
b. The Spanish translation is not "literal" -- but seems to choose something that makes sense in context.
c. German translation does not seem to use use "deck".
d. French might be a reasonably close translation (but more toward "panel")
e. Portuguese is not consistent in its use.

With absolutely no critique of the translators, the point is translators are going to find their own solutions (even ignoring (or repairing in the Danish case)) to a usage that makes sense to them (or maybe what they think the reader will understand). 

In other words, the issue is now whether some English word choice can be translated (of course it will be), but that within the English documentation (help and Writer's Guide), there is inconsistency (in close proximity). (To see the problem, some examples from Writer's Guide are given in comment #3, and try to read the first three paragraphs 05140000.html from the point of view of new user to Writer (even if the person is an experienced computer user in general). 

If the English is consistent, then there is a greater chance that translators will also be consistent.

>"Window" is the whole application- misused sometimes for dialog,
> which is a secondary and smaller thing on top of the main window.
This is the source and heart of the problem here: The informal use of "window" by most people (including documentation writers). Comment #3 lays out the current situation.  I am seeking advice/consensus about whether and how to address that situation, where some of the options are:

1. acknowledge/accept the "informal use" and use "window" (consistently)
2. "insist" on a (consistent) LO usage such as "deck" or "panel"
3. leave the status quo (with mixed usage in the documentation) (and maybe establish a "guideline" for the future)
4  ?...?

(no opinion expressed here about what to choose -- just seeking guidance/consensus about how to move forward in relation to the current situation.)
Comment 6 Heiko Tietze 2020-03-09 10:55:51 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #5)
> 1. acknowledge/accept the "informal use" and use "window" (consistently)
> 2. "insist" on a (consistent) LO usage such as "deck" or "panel"
> 3. leave the status quo (with mixed usage in the documentation) (and maybe
> establish a "guideline" for the future)
> 4  ?...?

When you talk about LibreOffice you mean documentation. Or do you also suggest to change the original terms, actually the guideline?
Comment 7 Buovjaga 2020-03-09 11:06:09 UTC
It is true "deck" sounds like something out of Star Trek. I thought about the topic and it occurred to me that "view" might be more intuitively understandable.

What do you think about bringing this topic up on the localisation mailing list? I could do it.
Comment 8 sdc.blanco 2020-03-09 23:39:51 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> When you talk about LibreOffice you mean documentation. 
Yes.  Only documentation.

> Or do you also suggest to change the original terms, actually the guideline?
No.  Previously I used the word "technical" as a way to indicate the specific terminology used by UX/developers.  My queries do not concern this terminology.

But maybe there is an implicit query about whether the user documentation must/should always use the same terminology as the guidelines.

(In reply to Buovjaga from comment #7)
> What do you think about bringing this topic up on the localisation mailing
> list? I could do it.
Could be a good idea, if a consensus develops toward something that might require a non-trivial number of retranslations (e.g., introducing a consistent word use).
You can better evaluate whether that list should also be involved in making the consensus.