Bug 134976 - UI: a quick way to pick a ODF version on save
Summary: UI: a quick way to pick a ODF version on save
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: UI (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
: 61194 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks: File-Dialog Save
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2020-07-20 10:08 UTC by Telesto
Modified: 2020-08-23 13:17 UTC (History)
7 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:
Regression By:


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Description Telesto 2020-07-20 10:08:31 UTC
Description:
UI: a quick way to pick a ODF version on save

Steps to Reproduce:
1. Open Writer
2. File -> Save

Actual Results:
No way to pick a version for a single save (always options-> file save settings)

Expected Results:
Being able to define version


Reproducible: Always


User Profile Reset: No



Additional Info:
Version: 7.1.0.0.alpha0+ (x64)
Build ID: 52820b52b3bca45e2db527d1cc5f4488b2e0b9d0
CPU threads: 4; OS: Windows 6.3 Build 9600; UI render: default; VCL: win
Locale: nl-NL (nl_NL); UI: en-US
Calc: CL
Comment 1 Heiko Tietze 2020-07-20 10:22:04 UTC
What is the use case to occasionally save in legacy formats? Having it under Tools > Options seems to be a sound solution. Keep in mind that every option we add for a few has an impact on all. So my take: keep it simple => WF.
Comment 2 Telesto 2020-07-20 10:35:21 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> What is the use case to occasionally save in legacy formats? Having it under
> Tools > Options seems to be a sound solution. Keep in mind that every option
> we add for a few has an impact on all. So my take: keep it simple => WF.

A case would be to 'get documents' working for bibisect. The backwards comp-ability of 1.3 not 'superior'. So documents do thinks slightly differently. So need to be saved in old format.. And going to options every time to change the setting is a pain. 

So yes, if there are multiple editions available; I really would prefer to pick at save, not as general setting.

So the save drop down as in Options.. but then places at save dialog when using ODT.

-> "impact on all". 
Same thing as the evolution of file format. Impacts all too. I prefer no versions at all :-). ODT 1.1 1.2 (comp-ability mode/ extended) 1.3. How many ODT file variants will be around :-(. Everything is called ODT. 

Same thing as changing the default format save. Can you explicit predict what will do in backwards comp-ability? So I want to be able to explicitly save as version X



Same way as somebody invented to format evolution's.
Comment 3 Heiko Tietze 2020-07-20 11:16:30 UTC
Have you tried to work with templates?
Comment 4 Telesto 2020-07-20 11:37:58 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)
> Have you tried to work with templates?

Not sure what a template has to do with Opening Word doc saving it to ODT for bibisect purposes with older branch not supporting 1.3.

And templates will be saved in the 'latest' format anyhow :-). It's used far to unpractical to switch between different formats. Yes, probably not the most requested feature. But the variants are starting to add up and I want to be in control..
Comment 5 Telesto 2020-07-20 11:40:46 UTC
Lets add another party .. to give his opinion..
Comment 6 Mike Kaganski 2020-07-20 12:14:05 UTC
Personally I would move the setting from the Options into the Save dialog. In fact, that's a kind of "filter setting", and we have the "Edit filter settings" checkbox in the Save As dialog. A consistent UX would be to have all filters have all their filter settings there, in one place, to not have PDF export options under File->Export As->Export as PDF, CSV options under Save As->check "[x] Edit filter settings", and ODF settings under Options->Load/Save->General.
Comment 7 Heiko Tietze 2020-07-21 11:48:35 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #6)
> ... we have the "Edit filter settings" checkbox in the Save As dialog.

Bad solution IMHO. It interrupts the common and simple workflow of saving a file and presents the user a sequence of dialogs she has to go though with no clear feedback what happens. For example, does clicking Save in the file picker dialog mean the file is saved even when the follow-up settings dialog is cancelled?

If we place legacy formats more prominently I suggest not one odf entry in the filter list but also "ODF v1.2 Text Document (.odt)". However, support for the QA team might be of interest for the development but is not user-centered design.
Comment 8 Mike Kaganski 2020-07-21 11:52:14 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #6)
> > ... we have the "Edit filter settings" checkbox in the Save As dialog.
> 
> Bad solution IMHO. It interrupts the common and simple workflow of saving a
> file

It does not. "Interruption" is opt-in; any workflow that needs some special settings necessarily includes a step of defining those settings.

> and presents the user a sequence of dialogs she has to go though with
> no clear feedback what happens. For example, does clicking Save in the file
> picker dialog mean the file is saved even when the follow-up settings dialog
> is cancelled?

which just means that we need to replace the checkbox with a button that opens the filter settings and returns into the save as dialog again.
Comment 9 Mike Kaganski 2020-07-21 12:08:24 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #6)
> > ... we have the "Edit filter settings" checkbox in the Save As dialog.
> 
> ... and presents the user a sequence of dialogs she has to go though with
> no clear feedback what happens. For example, does clicking Save in the file
> picker dialog mean the file is saved even when the follow-up settings dialog
> is cancelled?

By the way, "[x] Edit document properties before saving" under Options->Load/Save->General has the same problem; there are even bugs because of that; and moving all those save-settings-related things into the Save As dialog as buttons with own dialogs returning back to Save As would greatly help to simplify, remove complexity, unify and make things consistent.
Comment 10 Mike Kaganski 2020-07-21 12:17:50 UTC
... and further having the same "edit filter settings" buttons in both File Open and File Save dialogs, with those filter settings *having "save as default"*, would allow solving bugs related to e.g. saving defaults (tdf#74580), remove some redundant filters ("Text" vs "Text - choose encoding"), etc.
Comment 11 Thomas Lendo 2020-07-21 19:29:29 UTC
I like the idea of this bug. Maybe a compromise is to have the default settings in the options dialog but one-time changes will be possible in the save dialog.

I understand Mike's opinion to have settings where they are needed (would solve some user confusions), but I feel upset when many settings will be 'scattered' to different places in the UI.
Comment 12 Mike Kaganski 2020-07-21 20:09:15 UTC
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #11)
> I understand Mike's opinion to have settings where they are needed (would
> solve some user confusions), but I feel upset when many settings will be
> 'scattered' to different places in the UI.

Note that having an insane amount of settings in a single place also makes them effectively inaccessible.

I don't think that we must put the settings to too many different placed; however, I do believe that the settings should be accessible at the place where they are used. I believe that having the settings in a central place on a dedicated "filter settings" tab *could* be a nice thing; but at the same time, I disagree that a button on a dialog that allows user to open *that* configuration from a usage site counts as "scattering" the settings: they are still in the same central place, and you only have a shortcut.

So IMO, if there's a need to have the settings in Options, then they must be arranged in such a manner that they be available through a shortcut (ideally in a limited way, i.e. the shortcut only shows the relevant subset/tab).

The problem usually is not having the settings in different places; the problem is not having a system in that.
Comment 13 S.Zosgornik 2020-07-22 22:32:04 UTC
(In reply to Telesto from comment #2)
> -> "impact on all". 
> Same thing as the evolution of file format. Impacts all too. I prefer no
> versions at all :-). ODT 1.1 1.2 (comp-ability mode/ extended) 1.3. How many
> ODT file variants will be around :-(. Everything is called ODT. 
> 
This is exactly an argument against this feature request. LO evolved over time and there are four file-formates for this reason + the old OO file-formates not longer present in recent LO. Once accepted would we have to integrate all the legacy file-formates in the save dialog.

The only two reasonable solutions for me would be:

A - Fall back to the old fashion and reintroduce a version drop-down menu so we would have two drop-down menus, one for type and one for version

-   this would scatter the now basic save dialog again
+  this would allow to us to take all ms office versions out of the first dialog, effectively simplify it or

B - Replace the whole Default File Format settings (if this doesn't have other impacts) under Settings>Load\Save with a simple checkbox meaning Show exotic file formats

+  unchecked, would this approach take most of the file-formates out the Save menu
+  shown file formates by default could be related to local settings e.g. Unified Office Format shown by default in China but not shown by default on other locals
-  lot of work for the developers
-  hiding LO capabilities to users not aware of this setting
Comment 14 Heiko Tietze 2020-07-23 15:15:08 UTC
Looks like UX input has been given. We have some who argue WF with the idea that switching between formats is not a user task. And we have a discussion how to implement the feature with a) (optional) extra dialog in the save as workflow and b) extra filetype in the type dropdown.
Comment 15 Telesto 2020-07-23 15:29:59 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #14)
> Looks like UX input has been given. We have some who argue WF with the idea
> that switching between formats is not a user task. And we have a discussion
> how to implement the feature with a) (optional) extra dialog in the save as
> workflow and b) extra filetype in the type dropdown.

Object again additional filetypes in the drop down. We don't want to confuse people or overload them with options.

You select ODT file and a drop down will be present for version (like in the options dialog) with default to 1.3 (same as options). However not sure how it fits in the dialog (or if that's even possible). 

Or you end up with edit filter settings checkbox (which is used for txt). Surely not my first choice (still hidden away), but OK for last resort (I have the feeling i'm digging my own grave by presenting this ;-)
Comment 16 Regina Henschel 2020-07-23 17:07:37 UTC
I would like to have the versions in the file-type drop-down. But I do not want it in the normal "save as" dialog, because that is called, when you save a new document. So I suggest to put it in the "save a copy" dialog or make a total new dialog "extended save as". It need not have an icon, an item in the file menu is sufficient.

When I had reviewed LibreOffice's capability of ODF 1.3 formats, it was really cumbersome to go to Tools > Options to change the file type before each saving.
Comment 17 S.Zosgornik 2020-07-23 21:38:59 UTC
Well, for I like my idea of having an extended drop-down menu after checking a box - with optimal relationship to the local settings - would I change my suggestion to that the checkbox could also implemented in the Save dialog itself.

For this we could move the "Edit filter settings" checkbox in the text encoding dialog, for the reason that text with chosen encoding is the only case it is actual needed.
Comment 18 Thomas Lendo 2020-07-31 12:55:56 UTC
I would like to see an additional drop-down menu for ODF format versions in the Save dialog with the same content as it's usable in the Options dialog under Load/Save > General.

This selection should only be accessible for ODF formats and invisible when non-ODF formats are selected.

This selection should only effect the current file. Default for all files should only be set in the Options dialog.

This selection should show the ODF format version which is currently used for this file. For example, the file was formerly saved in ODF format version 1.1 then the drop-down menu should show this format version selected.

Additionally a link to the Options dialog > Load/Save > General should be there to give the user the chance to select another format version for all files. Mike rightly said that it's hard for users to find this settings. So they should be accessible also within the Save dialog.
Comment 19 Thomas Lendo 2020-07-31 21:07:49 UTC
*** Bug 61194 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 20 Timur 2020-08-01 19:15:41 UTC
Telesto, this is one of more bugs which you start without search, being really a duplicate. Rule of thumb is to search first and fire later. Also for confirmation.