Created attachment 168824 [details] two screenshots of the Sort Dialogue. Different language settings In the sort dialogue you can change the language to set options for sorting. However, this dialogue is only active if you select a language for which there are also options to set. Therefore, I describe the problem using the German user interface, as an option should actually be available here. When you open the dialogue, the language is always set to "Standard - Deutsch(Deutschland)". Initially, it is not possible to select an option here. If you then select "Deutsch (Deutschland)" - without "Standard" -, you can now select the option "Alphanumerisch" or "Telefonbuch". Standard means default. The program should not care whether German is set as the default or not. It should always display the option. After closing and reopening the sort dialogue, the language is in any case again the one with "Default". A permanent change does not seem possible.
If the language is changed in the sort options, this setting is saved with the document. If a new document is created, the default setting is used again. The programme should not care whether the setting is standard or not.
I can confirm the behaviour in Version: 7.2.1.2 (x64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: 87b77fad49947c1441b67c559c339af8f3517e22 CPU threads: 4; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 18363; UI render: Skia/Raster; VCL: win Locale: de-DE (de_DE); UI: de-DE Calc: threaded
(In reply to Jürgen Kirsten from comment #0) > > After closing and reopening the sort dialogue, the language is in any case > again the one with "Default". A permanent change does not seem possible. Isn't that a separate, second bug?
The Sort dialogue has been revised in LO 7.4. Unfortunately, this error was not immediately eliminated. The bug still occurs in the latest LO version. Version: 7.4.2.3 (x64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: 382eef1f22670f7f4118c8c2dd222ec7ad009daf CPU threads: 8; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 22000; UI render: Skia/Raster; VCL: win Locale: en-GB (de_DE); UI: en-GB Calc: threaded
The bug still occurs in the latest LO version. Version: 24.2.3.2 (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: 433d9c2ded56988e8a90e6b2e771ee4e6a5ab2ba CPU threads: 8; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 22631; UI render: Skia/Raster; VCL: win Locale: de-DE (de_DE); UI: de-DE Calc: threaded
(In reply to Jürgen Kirsten from comment #0) > Created attachment 168824 [details] > two screenshots of the Sort Dialogue. Different language settings [..] > > When you open the dialogue, the language is always set to "Standard - > Deutsch(Deutschland)". Initially, it is not possible to select an option > here. If you then select "Deutsch (Deutschland)" - without "Standard" -, you > can now select the option "Alphanumerisch" or "Telefonbuch". Standard means > default. > The program should not care whether German is set as the default or not. It > should always display the option. The behavior is by purpose. When you see "Standard - Deutsch(Deutschlang)" or in English user interface "Default - German(Germany)", then this information is from the global locale setting. When the document is saved, it will not contain any information about the global locale. Thus a locale dependent algorithm is not meaningful. > > After closing and reopening the sort dialogue, the language is in any case > again the one with "Default". A permanent change does not seem possible. As the information is not stored in the file in case you use "Standard - Deutsch(Deutschlang)" it cannot be retained, when reopening the file. When you select the locale as "Deutsch (Deutschland)", then this information is saved in the file and the Sort dialog will have it. (At least in current daily build.) Please remember, that any information in the sort dialog can only be written to file, if you have defined a database range for the to be sorted area. That is in Data > Define Range. For me this is a WontFix.
Hello Regina, Thank you for your comment on this error message. I agree with you that using the default language is intentional behaviour. I now understand that the possible options are not displayed when sorting in this case. Nevertheless, I am not entirely satisfied with LibreOffice's behaviour in this regard. I believe there is room for improvement. The first possible improvement, in my opinion, is as follows: When the sort dialogue box is opened and no language has been selected in the locale settings in the sort options or saved with the file, nothing should be displayed at this point. If the language of the user interface is displayed there with the note "Default", a less experienced user may not know that they still need to change the language in order to select the options under "Sort options". A second possible improvement would be to only list languages in the drop-down menu for which there are also options in the sorting options. Currently, these are: Chinese (Simplified), Chinese (Hong Kong), Chinese (Macau), Chinese (Singapore), Chinese (Traditional), German (Germany), German (Liechtenstein), German (Luxembourg), German (Austria), German (Switzerland), Japanese, Korean (ROK), Luxembourgish and Niederdeutsch. Last but not least: the language of the user interface together with the note "Standard" should not be included in the list of sorting options. In combination with the default language, there is no possible selection in the sorting options. So it can also be removed. It only causes confusion. However, it should be possible to delete a selection once it has been made. Currently, this is only possible if you select a language that does not allow any options. What do you think of my comments? Should this error message be converted into a suggestion for improvement, or are my suggestions nonsensical from a developer's point of view?
(In reply to Jürgen Kirsten from comment #7) > A second possible improvement would be to only list languages in the > drop-down menu for which there are also options in the sorting options. > Currently, these are: > Chinese (Simplified), Chinese (Hong Kong), Chinese (Macau), Chinese > (Singapore), Chinese (Traditional), German (Germany), German > (Liechtenstein), German (Luxembourg), German (Austria), German > (Switzerland), Japanese, Korean (ROK), Luxembourgish and Niederdeutsch. That would be bad, because the locale selected there is also used for other sort properties, e.g. to determine the decimal separator in "natural sort". > > Last but not least: the language of the user interface together with the > note "Standard" should not be included in the list of sorting options. In > combination with the default language, there is no possible selection in the > sorting options. Nevertheless the information is useful, which locale is actually used in the sorting algorithms. So it can also be removed. It only causes confusion. > However, it should be possible to delete a selection once it has been made. > Currently, this is only possible if you select a language that does not > allow any options. I do not understand. The entry "Default..." is the last one in the list. You can always go back to that mode.
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #8) Hello Regina, Thank you very much for your reply to my comment. > I do not understand. The entry "Default..." is the last one in the list. You can always go back to that mode. My comment that it should be possible to delete an entry again referred to the situation described in my previous suggestion, where only those languages that allow an entry in Options would be listed. If the default entry is also available in the drop-down menu, then, as you quite rightly pointed out, there is of course no need for it. > That would be bad, because the locale selected there is also used for other sort properties, e.g. to determine the decimal separator in "natural sort". > Nevertheless the information is useful, which locale is actually used in the sorting algorithms. I was not aware that the locale setting under the sort options was supposed to influence the sort order for natural sorting. Upon closer inspection and testing of the option, I was unable to reproduce this behaviour. The locale setting does influence the sort order for natural sorting, but not the setting in the sort options, rather the setting in Options - Languages and Locales - General - Formats - Locale:. To test this, I sorted two columns with the entries listed here under different settings. The vertical line here symbolises the cell separation. A1.1 | A1.2 | A1.3 | A1.4 | A1.5 | A1.6 | A1.7 | A1.8 | A1.9 | A1.10 | A1.11 | A1.12 A1,1 | A1,2 | A1,3 | A1,4 | A1,5 | A1,6 | A1,7 | A1,8 | A1,9 | A1,10 | A1,11 | A1,12 So two series of numbers after a letter with a decimal separator. The full stop for the English locale and the comma for the German locale. Changing the locale under the sorting options has no effect and does not change anything. With the German locale under the options, it looks like this: Without natural sorting (as expected): A1.1 | A1.10 | A1.11 | A1.12 | A1.2 | A1.3 | A1.4 | A1.5 | A1.6 | A1.7 | A1.8 | A1.9 A1,1 | A1,10 | A1,11 | A1,12 | A1,2 | A1,3 | A1,4 | A1,5 | A1,6 | A1,7 | A1,8 | A1,9 With natural sorting: A1.1 | A1.2 | A1.3 | A1.4 | A1.5 | A1.6 | A1.7 | A1.8 | A1.9 | A1.10 | A1.11 | A1.12 A1,1 | A1,10 | A1,11 | A1,12 | A1,2 | A1,3 | A1,4 | A1,5 | A1,6 | A1,7 | A1,8 | A1,9 That's completely wrong! Under the German locale, natural sorting should work with a comma, not a full stop. If you change the language in Options - Languages and Locales - General - Formats - Locale: to English, this is what it looks like when using natural sorting: A1.1 | A1.10 | A1.11 | A1.12 | A1.2 | A1.3 | A1.4 | A1.5 | A1.6 | A1.7 | A1.8 | A1.9 A1,1 | A1,2 | A1,3 | A1,4 | A1,5 | A1,6 | A1,7 | A1,8 | A1,9 | A1,10 | A1,11 | A1,12 And here too, it's wrong. Under the English locale, the full stop should work for natural sorting, not the comma. In summary, it seems that your argument that the entry in Sort Options - Locale has an influence and that the information is helpful does not apply. My suggestion that only languages that allow an entry in Options should be listed there is therefore still on the table. Or is it? Perhaps I have misunderstood something or carried out the tests incorrectly. You wrote that natural sorting is only one example. What other sorting options does the entry under the locale affect? I would like to test that as well. It would be nice if you could comment on this again. In your opinion, should the apparently incorrect sorting when using the natural sorting option be treated as a separate error message?
(In reply to Jürgen Kirsten from comment #9) [..] > I was not aware that the locale setting under the sort options was supposed > to influence the sort order for natural sorting. Oh, my default. I should have mentioned, that it applies to the upcoming version 26.2. To test it, you need to install a daily build. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Testing_Daily_Builds I have implemented it as fix for bug 168175 to be more compliant with the ODF standard. Further improvement were made for bug 161948.
default -> fault
Summary of the previous discussion: The difference between 'Standard - Deutsch (Deutschland)' and 'Deutsch (Deutschland)' makes perfect sense. The locale setting in the sort options also affects other sort parameters. My original question remains: If 'Standard - Deutsch (Deutschland)' is displayed in the sort options for the locale, why can't I select the additional option "Alphanumerisch" or "Telefonbuch"? If you change the locale in the options to another one, for example English (US), then the sorting options show Standard - English (US) and the additional options are greyed out again. This is exactly the same as when another user opens it with a different language setting. Even though the correct language is set by specifying the default language, you cannot set the additional options. I don't understand this. When using natural sorting (from LO 26.2), the comma is also used as the decimal separator, regardless of whether 'Standard - Deutsch (Deutschland)' and 'Deutsch (Deutschland)' is selected in the locale settings.
(In reply to Jürgen Kirsten from comment #12) > My original question remains: If 'Standard - Deutsch (Deutschland)' is > displayed in the sort options for the locale, why can't I select the > additional option "Alphanumerisch" or "Telefonbuch"? > If you change the locale in the options to another one, for example English > (US), then the sorting options show Standard - English (US) and the > additional options are greyed out again. This is exactly the same as when > another user opens it with a different language setting. If the setting is "Default - ...", then neither the locale nor a specific algorithm is written to file. And specifying an algorithm without knowing the associated locale is meaningless. Thus the user interface does not allow it. That is no restriction for the user since he can explicitly select the locale.