Adapted from bug 139667, comment 31 Recently, the label "Outline & Numbering" was changed to "Outline & List" in the Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs -- because the tab provides the opportunity to select a List Style Here an additional change is proposed: "Outline & List" -> "Level & List" Reasons: (a) reduce confusion with "Outline" tab and "Outline" in Bullets and Numbering, which has a different meaning (see bug 139667, comment 16). (b) highlights the important aspect of the control in the Paragraph (and PS) tab, namely "Level" (i.e., sets the Level within an outline, it is not making an outline, plus Level has other functions, e.g, what is shown in TOC, behavior in Outline Content Visibility). (c) The Position and Customize tabs in "Bullets and Numbering" and "List Style" dialogs have a "Level" option. Perhaps seeing "Level" in the tab for the Paragraph dialogs would help invite/draw an (appropriate) connection with the "Level" option in the Bullets and Numbering / List Style dialog. (d) Seems best to leave the "Outline" label unchanged as the tab name in Bullets and Numbering, because it contains what is commonly known as "outline types" or "outline formats" (see Google).
-1 from my side Outline in the paragraph dialog refers to the outline of the whole document. o we have also File => Sent => Outline to Clipboard File => Sent => Outline to Presentation the new tool "Outline Content Visibility" So I think "Outline" is more common for document structure. And I would'nt change it. I propose to search for a new label for "Outline" in List Dialog
(In reply to Dieter from comment #1) > Outline in the paragraph dialog refers to the outline of the whole document. Just to be sure that we are speaking about the same thing... The issue is the "Outline Level" control in the Paragraph dialog, right? The control name would remain "Outline Level", no change proposed there. The proposal is only for changing the label on the tab in the Paragraph dialog with the Outline Level control (for the reasons enumerated in the OP). Meanwhile -- When you write that "outline" refers to the whole document, I become confused, or at least uncertain about how you are conceptualizing "outline" in relation to the Paragraph dialog, because the tab and its control refer only indirectly to the outline of the whole document (namely, a level within an outline), where the dialog is to set the "level" property for the paragraph (style). More generally: "Outline" is another layer of abstraction, not addressed in the Paragraph dialog. That is one of the reasons for Tools > Chapter Numbering, where you can "link" a Paragraph Style with a Level (notice "Level" in the Chapter Numbering dialog). It is also why you cannot modify the Outline Level in Heading 1-10 in the Paragraph Style Dialog. (Simply describing current implementation here, no endorsement or evaluation intended.)
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #2) > The issue is the "Outline Level" control in the Paragraph dialog, right? > The control name would remain "Outline Level", no change proposed there. > The proposal is only for changing the label on the tab in the Paragraph > dialog with the Outline Level control (for the reasons enumerated in the OP). Yes, that's what I've understood (and of course also for Paragraph Style Dialog > Meanwhile -- > When you write that "outline" refers to the whole document, I become > confused, or at least uncertain about how you are conceptualizing "outline" > in relation to the Paragraph dialog, because the tab and its control refer > only indirectly to the outline of the whole document (namely, a level within > an outline), where the dialog is to set the "level" property for the > paragraph (style). That's exactly the problem with the label "outline" because it has different meanings within LO. I would guess, that the most common meaning is outline as the name for the structure of the whole document. This outline is represented by the heading structure of the navigator and paragraph levels are part of that structure. Anyway. Meaning of "outline" doesn't seem to be clear, so more people should be involved in this discussion.
(In reply to Dieter from comment #3) > Anyway. Meaning of "outline" doesn't seem to be clear, so more people should > be involved in this discussion. Ok. Maybe you should say what you think is unclear. Or identify where in the UI there is a potential problem. That might help focus the discussion. Also, fwiw, the OP here is not really related to your question about the meaning of outline. The proposal is to remove one of the appearances of "outline", so not clear why you would object to that change, which would reduce the multiple/diverse uses of the "outline" label.
It seems to me, that we don't understand each other. So let's wait for a different voice.
In German the whole thing is "Gliederung" (meaning of outline) and easy to understand for native speakers. No need for level or list. I doubt it becomes more clear with any change (always in favor of tooltips) but also not objecting. If you rename the tab you also need to change the outline section, I guess. Stuart, what's your take as native speaker?
> Stuart, what's your take as native speaker? Looking forward to your comments Stuart. (will help resolve this ticket, which is the last piece in a larger puzzle).
I'm not a native speaker, but I had a look at Chicago Manual of Style 17th Edition. If "outline" is related to lists, it is there defined as a "list with multiple levels" (6.132). So outline and level seem to be synonyms if they are used in the context of lists. From my POV "List & Level" has no advantage compared to "List & Outline".
(In reply to Dieter from comment #8) > I'm not a native speaker, but I had a look at Chicago Manual of Style 17th > Edition. If "outline" is related to lists, it is there defined as a "list > with multiple levels" (6.132). So my proposal is to make a little change from "Outline & List" to "List & Outline", because in paragraph style dialog you can choose a list without an outline, but - as far as I can see - not an outine without a list (therefore we also might consider to change order within "List & Outline" tab: "Apply List Style" first and "Outline" second.
(In reply to Dieter from comment #9) > So my proposal is to make a little change from "Outline & List" to "List & > Outline", because in paragraph style dialog you can choose a list without an > outline, but - as far as I can see - not an outine without a list (therefore > we also might consider to change order within "List & Outline" tab: "Apply > List Style" first and "Outline" second. Heiko, what do you think?
(In reply to Dieter from comment #8) > From my POV "List & Level" has no advantage compared to "List & Outline". (In reply to Dieter from comment #9) > ...change from "Outline & List" to "List & Outline" Don't see advantage in shuffling the words. (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > "Outline & Numbering" was changed to "Outline & List" > (a) reduce confusion with "Outline" tab and "Outline" in B&N... > (b) highlights the important aspect ... namely "Level" > (c) tabs in "B&N" and "List Style" have a "Level" option > (d) leave the "Outline" label ...in B&N commonly known But in the end I believe users don't read those details. In most cases they glance over the dialog to find a way to "put numbers at the beginning of the text" having a chapter number in mind (Outline is the whole picture to me, an overview of the document structure). And less often to make a paragraph a list (type equally split here). So the keywords are numbering, outline, and list- and if I spot any of those terms I pick the tab. Given that outline is kind of a list, how about "List Style"? (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > "Outline & List" -> "Level & List" The alliteration reads awkward. Off-topic: No need to CC me to UX topics, I receive and read all messages to the ux-advice mailing list.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11) > Don't see advantage in shuffling the words. It would emphazise, that list is the broader word and outline is the list outline and it is something different than outline of the document.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11) > But in the end I believe users don't read those details. Agree -- in general. > The alliteration reads awkward. Agree. "List & Level" would "sound" better. (-: But I am content to leave this as WF. Both “List & Level” and “Outline & List” are meaningful labels in relation to the tab, so then it becomes a question of which words signal the important functions of the tab. I chose “Level” because it is the attribute being modified by "Outline Level". Also, the word “Outline” gives a false impression that the numbering hierarchy is created here in the paragraph (style) dialog, or that Outline Level has something to do with the lists. It doesn't. [ Reason (c) in comment 0 also demonstrated that confusion - but reasons (a) and (b) are still valid. ] > Given that outline is kind of a list, how about "List Style"? I believe you share a misunderstanding here with Dieter in relation to this particular dialog tab -- which makes it difficult to discuss. (In this exceptional case, the label may make a difference!) >Dieter from comment #8> I'm not a native speaker...Chicago Manual of Style >Dieter from comment #8> If "outline" is related to lists The issue here is conceptual/technical, not linguistic. It cannot be solved by looking at dictionary or style manual definitions; it requires understanding what the controls are actually doing in this context (no matter what they are called, though in this case, we must use the terminology provided by the UI.). I have already accepted WF. But for the sake of clarity: The critical point is that the word "level" is used with two different independent meanings for "Outline Level" and "List Level" (in the LO interface and in the underlying ODF). The expression "Outline Level" comes presumably from the ODF (19.850 text:outline-level), which is carried over to the UI. But that "level" is distinct from the attribute "level" (19.834 text:level), which is used with list elements. In the UI, it appears that "Level" is also carried over to the UI (in the Position and Customize tabs in Bullets and Numbering dialog). The only place in the UI where I can find "List Level" at present is in the Condition tab in the PS dialog -- and that is because I changed it recently). ("List level" also appears throughout comments in the source code.) In the PS dialog tab under discussion here, there is no connection or dependence between Outline Level and List Style (List Level). It is possible to set an Outline Level without a List or apply a List without setting an Outline Level. The "connection" between "Outline Level" and "List Level" is created by the Chapter Numbering dialog, which exists to create an apparent dependence between Outline Level and List Level. (In fact, the dialog lets you assign a List Level 1 numbering to a Heading N which is assigned to an Outline Level). This "assignment" is preserved/enforced by the UI, because the PS dialog prevents editing Outline Level for the Heading N paragraph styles. (and if you choose to use another PS in the Chapter Numbering dialog, then you will not be able to set the Outline Level in the PS dialog -- by design). The proposal to use "Level" instead of "Outline" was mostly to steer people away from thinking that this tab has something to do with lists and outlines -- -- but following the principle "renaming … UI elements has to be an exception”, then this reason ("steering away") is not a strong enough justification for an exception right now. But I hope this ticket highlights an issue that will get further attention. If the Bullets and Numbering dialog gets developed further, it might be worth considering using the label "List Level" instead of "Level" in the Position and Customize tabs.
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #13) > > Given that outline is kind of a list, how about "List Style"? > I believe you share a misunderstanding here with Dieter in relation to this > particular dialog tab -- which makes it difficult to discuss. (In this > exceptional case, the label may make a difference!) Yes, misunderstanding from my side, sorry. I wasn't aware of the functionality of the outline feature here. (Now I understand the function, but I don't know, why we need it, because in navigator we actually mix outline created with paragraph styles and outline created with chapter numbering, but that's of course another topic.)
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #13) > But I am content to leave this as WF.
(In reply to Dieter from comment #14) > functionality of the outline feature here. (Now I understand the function, > but I don't know, why we need it, 1. if "Outline" is used in TOC, then you need to set Outline level to have headings appear in TOC (e.g., by default Appendix style has no level, so will not appear). 2. If you export "outline" in PDF, then you need to set outline level to have headings appear (even if no numbers are used). > outline created with paragraph styles and outline created with chapter > numbering, but that's of course another topic.) Correct. Heading 1-10 have outline level set by default, but PS dialog is not used to give numbers those headings. The "connection" between numbering and outline level is created in the "Chapter Numbering" dialog. In that dialog, you are assigning a List level 1 numbering scheme to a paragraph style for each outline level, which may give the impression (and confusion?) that outline level and list level are the same (there is a special function in the source code that creates the mapping). When you use Tab or Demote/Promote One level on the PS specified in the dialog, then outline level changes (including the PS linked to that level in the dialog). Without the Chapter Numbering dialog (i.e., using only Outline Level and List Style in the PS), then you must manually change the list level (with Tab or "Demote One Level") each time you want an outline level to show a numbering over list level 1, but the outline level (and PS) will not change. (This can be verified empirically.)
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #16) > (In reply to Dieter from comment #14) > > functionality of the outline feature here. (Now I understand the function, > > but I don't know, why we need it, > 1. if "Outline" is used in TOC, then you need to set Outline level to have > headings appear in TOC (e.g., by default Appendix style has no level, so > will not appear). > 2. If you export "outline" in PDF, then you need to set outline level to > have headings appear (even if no numbers are used). Yes, but both things are also available with chapter numbering (and if you don't want to number the headings you can set "Number" to none). So again, I don't understand, why we need this feature.
SDC.blanco, you've changed status from WONTFIX to FIXED. But I don't understand this, because nothing has changed. => Back to WONTFIX Please feel free to change status again but add a short reasoning.