Created attachment 169929 [details] Dokument with alternating right and left pages The feature 'page gutter' was implemented with bug 91920. It allows the user to distinguish in the margins between an area, which will be consumed by binding and an area, which gives a visible margin. If the document has a "Mirrored" page layout, the gutter area is automatically left on right pages and right on left pages, that is, the gutter area is always at the inner margin. But if the user makes alternating right and left pages not by using the "Mirrored" page layout but by using alternating "Only right" and "Only left" page layout, he cannot use the feature 'page gutter', because the needed gutter position "Right" is not available. Enhancement request: Add a new position "Right" to the drop-down list, usable for left pages. Alternative: Put the gutter for left pages automatically to the right margin and show "Right" instead of "Left" in the drop-down list in this case. Implementing of this needs to consider how the feature 'page gutter' will be implemented for right-to-left page writing direction, see bug 140343.
I Added keyword "needsUXEval, because it's an enhancement request.
I would expect the gutter at right for left pages. The checkbox "gutter on right side" is quite confusing here and affects only odd pages for the mirrored layout. Can we rename "Left" to "side" and put it automatically at left on even pages and right otherwise? And remove the checkbox.
See also bug 140655, requesting to rename "left page" to "even page" (and right to odd) because of the LTR/RTL duality.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2) > Can we rename "Left" to "side" and put it automatically at > left on even pages and right otherwise? And remove the checkbox. Regina?
Suggestion made in comment 2, removing UX.
I'm not sure what's meant by "left pages" and "right pages". Do you mean front-side (recto) pages and back-side (verso) pages? Anyway, this can be achieved in several different ways: * Negative gutter and wider margins * Choosing between a verso and recto first page * Ability to say "I want the gutter to be on the left / on the right of recto pages" * Ability to say "I want the gutter to be at the beginning-of-line / end-of-line of recto pages"
Hello. In Persian (Farsi) books, gutter position (In "Right and left" Page layout options) must be right and there is no this option!
Dear Regina Henschel, This bug has been in NEEDINFO status with no change for at least 6 months. Please provide the requested information as soon as possible and mark the bug as UNCONFIRMED. Due to regular bug tracker maintenance, if the bug is still in NEEDINFO status with no change in 30 days the QA team will close the bug as INSUFFICIENTDATA due to lack of needed information. For more information about our NEEDINFO policy please read the wiki located here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Status/NEEDINFO If you have already provided the requested information, please mark the bug as UNCONFIRMED so that the QA team knows that the bug is ready to be confirmed. Thank you for helping us make LibreOffice even better for everyone! Warm Regards, QA Team MassPing-NeedInfo-Ping
The needed behavior and wording is still not clear in these cases: Wording "right" and "left" in general in RTL writing mode Setting gutter in "right and left pages" in RTL writing mode. Setting gutter in alternating "only left" and "only right" in LTR writing mode. Having "top" and "side" as only choice, and positioning the gutter automatically without any checkbox would be fine for me. Automatically setting the gutter position needs to consider the writing mode and whether the page is a front-side (recto) page or back-side (verso) page, so that the gutter is always at the usual binding edge. For different binding methods the user can still set gutter to 0cm and set the margins width as needed.
(In reply to افشین from comment #7) > Hello. > In Persian (Farsi) books, gutter position (In "Right and left" Page layout > options) must be right and there is no this option! That's not a meaningful statement, since the gutter alternates as we move from one page to the next, between being on right and on left. (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #9) > The needed behavior and wording is still not clear in these cases: Indeed.
From the comments, there is agreement that something needs to change, so setting to "new".
(In reply to Stéphane Guillou (stragu) from comment #11) > From the comments, there is agreement that something needs to change, so > setting to "new". Agreement that _something_ needs to change does not mean agreement that the change suggested in the title. I disagree with going further down the weird rabbit hole that we're in. * We have implicit book-binding modes which only implicitly refer to, using page layout names: "Right only" and "Left only". * We have a distinction without a difference in gutter vs margin in pages which are always to be on the same side of the spine/gutter - and pages which are not going to be bound at all. This forces our users to think of binding and gutters, when they should not have to, since they're just printing some pages. This is already enough IMHO to reject this suggestion. But it's not all... * We call the gutter options "top" and "left", even though that is typically not the correct description. That is, the gutter is to _both_ sides of the spine. (Yes, if you print sheets with one side empty, and bind them on one side, then you could say the gutter is on the right and or on the left of the pages; but again - why should we burden our users with this metaphor?) * We have "Left only" and "Right only" page layouts, further confusing users. * For more confusion, think about RTL books, where the page turning order is opposite than for LTR; and about the fact that many places in the LO UI conflate "Left" with "Start" and "Right" with "End". * For even more confusion, There's a checkbox, separate from the "Gutter Position" drop-down list box, entitled "Gutter on right side of page". I am already going insane with these... So, let us not do this at all. Instead, let's: * Drop the entire Page Layout option. * Replace "Gutter on right side of page" with a choice of which side of the page the gutter starts with. Or perhaps drop it too, and take that setting from the choice of RTL/LTR page direction. * The gutter value will now only save as gutter which is added on alternating sides with each consecutive page. * Have the Footer and Header options "Different for Right and Left pages" replaced with "Different for odd and even pages". And perhaps mention they're odd or even in the current sequence of pages (although then there's the question of whether we want to draw users' attention to the concept of a page sequence, which isn't well-fleshed-out in the UI despite its importance). TBH, I'm not claiming that's the only reasonable thing to do. We could, alternatively, be more explicit about sheets and not just pages, and about binding, and things like folios, quartos etc. And have more meaningful and illustrative previews. But I really dislike what we have now. So, suggest marking INVALID or WONTFIX for the reason of going for a more fundamental change.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #12) > * Replace "Gutter on right side of page" with a choice of which side of the > page the gutter starts with. Or perhaps drop it too, and take that setting > from the choice of RTL/LTR page direction. This was my suggestion in comment 2. > * Have the Footer and Header options "Different for Right and Left pages" > replaced with "Different for odd and even pages". +1