Bug 144511 - [DOCUMENTATION] Please describe how auto-save works in enough detail so users know when it will occur
Summary: [DOCUMENTATION] Please describe how auto-save works in enough detail so users...
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Documentation (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
7.1.4.2 release
Hardware: All All
: medium normal
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard: target:25.2.0
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: AutoSave-AutoRecovery-Backup Help-Changes-Features
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Reported: 2021-09-15 06:50 UTC by Luke Kendall
Modified: 2024-08-30 06:56 UTC (History)
4 users (show)

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Crash report or crash signature:


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Description Luke Kendall 2021-09-15 06:50:01 UTC
See bug https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122530

I have no idea how Writer decides when to auto-save.
When auto-save starts, it locks the document I'm editing until the auto-save has completed, and it interrupts the editing. It can also take 30 seconds or more, completely destroying 'flow'. Its unpredictability is a problem.
 
Things I would like to know:

1. Is auto-saving something that is decided at some moment for all open documents? Or is it performed per document, independently?
2. When auto-save happens for one open doc, does that mean it will soon happen for other open docs?
3. Auto-save occurs at an interval the user can control: what is the start point for that period?
(Possibilities include: 
a) last auto-save for the document
b) last save of any type (auto or manual) for the document
c) last manual save for the document
d) any of a) - c), but only if the doc (any doc?) has been edited since 'last save'
e) last auto-save of the first doc opened
f) last auto-save of the first doc opened that's still open now
g) last save of any type, for the first doc opened;
h) ....
I'm speculating because I still haven't identified the pattern despite tens of thousands of hours of use of LO)
4. When is the auto-save deleted (I assume there is only a single auto-save for each open document)
5. Maybe include a high level statement of what the feature is meant to achieve. Initially I thought it mean "How many minutes of work on a document do I want to risk losing if LO crashes?", but I'm not sure if it really means that or not.

Basically, I'd like to know when Writer will decide to auto-save so I can try to save manually and thus avoid having it kick in and interrupt my workflow

Please note that I really appreciate the feature for those cases where I forget to save because I'm so wrapped up in what I'm doing, though!
Comment 2 patrick rall 2021-09-19 18:57:39 UTC Comment hidden (spam)
Comment 3 Justin L 2024-06-11 09:39:41 UTC
(In reply to Luke Kendall from comment #0)
> I have no idea how Writer decides when to auto-save.
These are implementation details that probably should not be enshrined in documentation, because then it becomes harder to change the implementation since some people will interpret that as "it must work this way" rather than "it does work this way". I'd say WONTFIX since the intention and implementations are pretty straight forward and logical.
 
> 1. Is auto-saving something that is decided at some moment for all open
> documents? Or is it performed per document, independently?
Since LO 24.2 it is per document - independently. (Prior to that, I believe all modified documents were saved at the same time.)

> 2. When auto-save happens for one open doc, does that mean it will soon
> happen for other open docs?
No. See #1

> 3. Auto-save occurs at an interval the user can control: what is the start
> point for that period?
Since LO 24.2, the timer starts when the document is modified. (Prior to that, I believe it was simply a timer - dependent only on the clock).

> 4. When is the auto-save deleted (I assume there is only a single auto-save
> for each open document)
The ODF AutoRecovery file is deleted after the document itself is saved (i.e. when it is no longer the most recent version on disk). For a miniscule period of time, there are two auto-save copies. The old one is removed when the new one has successfully completed saving.

> 5. Include a high level statement of what the feature is meant to achieve.
"How many minutes of work on a document do I want to risk losing if LO crashes?"

> Basically, I'd like to know when Writer will decide to auto-save so I can try
> to save manually and thus avoid having it kick in and interrupt my workflow
Please note that the answers above are all dependent on the computer detecting a "break" in the user's activity. It waits until an "idle period" has been reached, avoiding an interruption in the middle of typing a sentence, etc.
     #define MIN_TIME_FOR_USER_IDLE 10000 // 10s user idle
Comment 4 Luke Kendall 2024-07-24 05:31:23 UTC
This current behaviour is SO disruptive and frustrating.

My document is now long enough that saving takes over ten seconds.
It routinely occurs while I'm typing, so I lose what I've typed.
It also kicks in within a minute after I last manually saved, so I can't even stave it off by discipling myself to manually save, at moments I choose, as I work.

I really think the "time to wait to do an auto-save" should be measured per document, starting from the time of the last manual save.

That the documentation doesn't address this at all is an added frustration. I find it a very weak argument, that users would then think it SHOULD work as described.

But I don't dare turn off auto save, or even make it an hour long interval, as I have had Writer lose lots of work - sometimes in a crash, sometimes from a power failure.

Sigh.
Comment 5 Luke Kendall 2024-07-25 05:07:13 UTC
It also occurs to me that an auto-save that occurs seconds or minutes after a manual save is worth very little compared to an autosave that occurs after fifteen minutes (or whatever you've set the period to), of creative work.

I think the current logic devalues the user's work, and doesn't do a good job of providing safety.
Comment 6 fpy 2024-08-20 21:58:30 UTC
(In reply to Luke Kendall from comment #4)
> This current behaviour 

could you please confirm you're referring to 24.2?
it clearly adresses your original request, doesn't it? 


(In reply to Luke Kendall from comment #5)
> It also occurs to me that an auto-save that occurs seconds or minutes after
> a manual save is worth very little compared to an autosave that occurs after
> fifteen minutes (or whatever you've set the period to), of creative work.
> 
> I think the current logic devalues the user's work, and doesn't do a good
> job of providing safety.

again, what "current" refers to?
(24.2 let you specify the time interval from your last save)


Could you have a look to the latest pages we're trying to consolidate, and make suggestions to improve / clarify
https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/shared/guide/doc_autosave.html?&DbPAR=SHARED
https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/shared/optionen/01010200.html?&DbPAR=SHARED

thanks
Comment 7 Luke Kendall 2024-08-21 03:53:35 UTC
(In reply to fpy from comment #6)
> (In reply to Luke Kendall from comment #4)
> > This current behaviour 
> 
> could you please confirm you're referring to 24.2?
> it clearly adresses your original request, doesn't it? 
> 
> 
> (In reply to Luke Kendall from comment #5)
> > It also occurs to me that an auto-save that occurs seconds or minutes after
> > a manual save is worth very little compared to an autosave that occurs after
> > fifteen minutes (or whatever you've set the period to), of creative work.
> > 
> > I think the current logic devalues the user's work, and doesn't do a good
> > job of providing safety.
> 
> again, what "current" refers to?
> (24.2 let you specify the time interval from your last save)
> 
> 
> Could you have a look to the latest pages we're trying to consolidate, and
> make suggestions to improve / clarify
> https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/shared/guide/doc_autosave.
> html?&DbPAR=SHARED
> https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/shared/optionen/01010200.
> html?&DbPAR=SHARED
> 
> thanks

Sorry, I'm not using 24.2 (is that an alpha...?), but 7.5.3.2:

Version: 7.5.3.2 (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 9f56dff12ba03b9acd7730a5a481eea045e468f3
CPU threads: 8; OS: Linux 5.18; UI render: default; VCL: gtk3
Locale: en-AU (en_AU.UTF-8); UI: en-US
Calc: threaded

As for https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/shared/guide/doc_autosave.html?&DbPAR=SHARED ...

Re the .bkp feature: that description sounds clear. (Though I personally wouldn't find it of much use; but that's just my work preference: I try to save often, and I struggle to see how I'd use that last save, .bkp version.)

Re the "n minutes", it says nothing whatsoever about when the time is measured from, nor whether it is per document. Right nopw that text reads:

"To save recovery information automatically every n minutes
Choose Tools - Options - Load/Save - General.

Mark [Save AutoRecovery information every] and select the time interval.

This command saves the information necessary to restore the current document in case of a crash. Additionally, in case of a crash LibreOfficeDev tries automatically to save AutoRecovery information for all open documents, if possible"

In contrast, the information at https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/shared/optionen/01010200.html?&DbPAR=SHARED 
IS good and clear, and states both that the time is per document, and when it is measured from. It's a very concise and clear statement, IMO. (Thanks!)

So, yes, when I upgrade to a released version which incorporates that ;ogic, I'll be much happier!

Thanks again.
Comment 8 Commit Notification 2024-08-26 15:34:44 UTC
Pierre F committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/help/commit/f9c2c4f00d219221d8e06a0961b0594835d94958

tdf#152463 tdf#144511 AutoRecovery and backup on by default