Bug Hunting Session
Bug 46527 - FILESAVE: Duplicate the File Types List under "Save as..." to "Export..."
Summary: FILESAVE: Duplicate the File Types List under "Save as..." to "Export..."
Status: RESOLVED WORKSFORME
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Calc (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
: 55965 56285 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks: File-Dialog
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2012-02-23 08:48 UTC by famo
Modified: 2017-06-21 11:56 UTC (History)
6 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
File Types List in Save as... Dialog (25.89 KB, image/png)
2012-02-23 08:50 UTC, famo
Details
File Types List in Export... Dialog (22.07 KB, image/png)
2012-02-23 08:51 UTC, famo
Details

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Description famo 2012-02-23 08:48:37 UTC
This issue is about the File format list under File -> Export... , this list is rather small compared to the list under File -> Save as... Therefore I request to add ("duplicate") the items from the "Save as..." to the "Export..." dialog.

Background:
Currently I have two common use cases:

1. I exchange my work with another person (i.e. I send him copies of my spreadsheet) who uses solely MS Excel. So I need to export ("Save as...") my document from time to time as .xls, but since I don't work with the .xls I need to click a warning away, close the document after saving and reopen my ODS. -> Annoying

2. For a different software I work with, I need to export ("Save as...") a sheet to .csv. Here I also have to go via "Save as..." and click two warnings away, close the document and reopen my original. This is not only annoying, but can also lead to data loss, when I forget to close the .csv and work with it, since the warning "only the current sheet is saved" appears only once.

I hope my request is clear, for the sake of clarity and to make things sure I will attach a screenshot of the "Save as..." and one of the "Export..." dialog.

Note, that this issue should not alter (other) current user behavior, since it only adds item to the "Export..." list, but doesn't remove them from the "Save as..." list.


PS:
I filled this under the spreadsheet component, but this probably also applies to other components of LO.
Comment 1 famo 2012-02-23 08:50:22 UTC
Created attachment 57537 [details]
File Types List in Save as... Dialog
Comment 2 famo 2012-02-23 08:51:04 UTC
Created attachment 57538 [details]
File Types List in Export... Dialog
Comment 3 bfoman (inactive) 2012-10-22 16:40:05 UTC
*** Bug 55965 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 4 bfoman (inactive) 2012-10-22 16:40:56 UTC
*** Bug 56285 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 5 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2017-06-07 03:50:35 UTC
'Save As' is a different feature to 'Export', which is why we have two separate commands with two separate file types list. Exporting a file will normally cause the loss of some data, like exporting to html format, or the loss of all data, like when exporting to png, with the intend that it wont be re-edited in LibreOffice.

UX-Team: If you disagree, please reopen.
Comment 6 Heiko Tietze 2017-06-07 07:11:10 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #5)
> Exporting a file will normally cause the loss of some data...

Reasonable explanation though rather technical. It means the user has to be aware of the background and needs to know that HTML has limited capabilities compared to ODF. Assume the majority is aware of this difference but another Html as well as dbase, diff, text etc. are listed under Save As, which is confusing.

Turning things around, would it really be distracting to find PNG under Save As? Why not merge the two menus?

(Side note: GIMP has Save/Save As that provides only internal formats (xcf). Guess most users do enter this menu like me looking actually for Export as PNG.)
Comment 7 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2017-06-07 22:23:59 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> Reasonable explanation though rather technical. It means the user has to be
> aware of the background and needs to know that HTML has limited capabilities
> compared to ODF. Assume the majority is aware of this difference but another
> Html as well as dbase, diff, text etc. are listed under Save As, which is
> confusing.

The 'Save As' dialog lists the same file types that are available in the 'Open' dialog, except for the one that are read only formats like Quatro Pro. No idea how the HTML in 'Save As' differs from the one in 'Export', but know that csv text files are common files to editing in a spreadsheet, which is why its not in 'Export'.

> Turning things around, would it really be distracting to find PNG under Save
> As? Why not merge the two menus?

Already answered, but lets take another stab at it. When you use 'Export' you save a copy of the current opened file into another file, similar to 'Save a Copy', and continue editing your original file. If PNG was available in 'Save As', similar to PDF, then LO would have to strip away all non-editable features and simply display the PNG on screen.

> (Side note: GIMP has Save/Save As that provides only internal formats (xcf).
> Guess most users do enter this menu like me looking actually for Export as
> PNG.)

Yes just like GIMP, you have Save/Save As which retains your original creation with layers, guides, etc. with the intent to reopen it for continuous editing and you have Export where you loose these features and output it in a format for displaying (e.g. PNG) or data interchange (e.g. C source code).
Comment 8 Heiko Tietze 2017-06-08 08:36:27 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #7)
> Already answered, but lets take another stab at it. When you use 'Export'
> you save a copy of the current opened file into another file, similar to
> 'Save a Copy', and continue editing your original file. If PNG was available
> in 'Save As'...

Double-reasonable

> > (Side note: GIMP...

It was an example how I struggle with the distinction. In case of GIMP it's artificial.
Comment 9 famo 2017-06-18 20:40:21 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #5)
> 'Save As' is a different feature to 'Export', which is why we have two
> separate commands with two separate file types list. 
> 
No doubt.


> Exporting a file will normally cause the loss of some data, ...
Nope, as you self explain in c7 - some data is merely stripped and that ONLY in the exported document - there is no loss of data on export at all.

However did you read my usecase 2?

It is the other-way round, namely if you use 'Save as' and keep continuing editing.
I just checked again in a recent LO-calc version:
Save as csv, click warning away (what else should one do, it is the only way to "export" as csv).
csv document is rendered/displayed exactly odc document, there is no hint of data-loss on Save.

> like exporting to html format, or the
> loss of all data, like when exporting to png, with the intend that it wont
> be re-edited in LibreOffice.
> 
If you are afraid of unaware data-loss on export, a warning (like the one on "Save as"), could be added.


> UX-Team: If you disagree, please reopen.

Actually I disagree.
Just closing this provides no solution/improvement at all to my two very real-world scenarios.
Comment 10 Cor Nouws 2017-06-19 13:48:37 UTC
So your wish is for e.g. xls file format, you want the option to save your active ods file as xls, but continue to work in the ods file.
Looks as a reasonable request to me.
Comment 11 famo 2017-06-19 18:18:40 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #10)
> So your wish is for e.g. xls file format, you want the option to save your
> active ods file as xls, but continue to work in the ods file.
> 
That's right! Same for csv and probably all of the "Save as" file types.

> Looks as a reasonable request to me.
> 
My thoughts exactly!
Comment 12 Cor Nouws 2017-06-19 18:28:02 UTC
(In reply to famo from comment #11)
> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #10)
> > So your wish is for e.g. xls file format, you want the option to save your
> > active ods file as xls, but continue to work in the ods file.
> > 
> That's right! Same for csv and probably all of the "Save as" file types.

I agree with Jay & Heiko that it would be confusing, non functional for e.g. export as graphics.
I even think the list of useful extensions, is shorter than the non-useful ones.

> > Looks as a reasonable request to me.
> > 
> My thoughts exactly!

But for the UI-design a merge/combination of both lists, as you suggest, is not the first I would think of.
Comment 13 famo 2017-06-19 19:01:34 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12)
> (In reply to famo from comment #11)
> > (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #10)
> > > So your wish is for e.g. xls file format, you want the option to save your
> > > active ods file as xls, but continue to work in the ods file.
> > > 
> > That's right! Same for csv and probably all of the "Save as" file types.
> 
> I agree with Jay & Heiko that it would be confusing, non functional for e.g.
> export as graphics.
> I even think the list of useful extensions, is shorter than the non-useful
> ones.
> 
I don't quite understand this part. PNG is already available under Export which is fine and should stay there.
This issue is only about the options under Export.

> > > Looks as a reasonable request to me.
> > > 
> > My thoughts exactly!
> 
> But for the UI-design a merge/combination of both lists, as you suggest, is
> not the first I would think of.

Did I?
My wording is probably not the best, but I merely wanted e.g. xls and csv available as option under Export.
Comment 14 Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) 2017-06-20 20:00:05 UTC
(In reply to famo from comment #9)
> > Exporting a file will normally cause the loss of some data, ...
> Nope, as you self explain in c7 - some data is merely stripped and that ONLY
> in the exported document - there is no loss of data on export at all.

If you export to a PNG, all exchangeable data is lost.

> However did you read my usecase 2?
> 
> It is the other-way round, namely if you use 'Save as' and keep continuing
> editing.
> I just checked again in a recent LO-calc version:
> Save as csv, click warning away (what else should one do, it is the only way
> to "export" as csv).
> csv document is rendered/displayed exactly odc document, there is no hint of
> data-loss on Save.

File > Save As Copy... already solves this use case. I use it when i need to open a .odt file and save it as a .docx, .doc, .txt, etc. without leaving my original .odt file.
Comment 15 Cor Nouws 2017-06-20 20:13:39 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #14)

> File > Save As Copy... already solves this use case. I use it when i need to
> open a .odt file and save it as a .docx, .doc, .txt, etc. without leaving my
> original .odt file.

Hé LOL, missed that one.
(hate to admit, but that's a disadvantage of using the key board ;) )

Famo: that feature is added to the menu in version 4.1
So a clear WorksForMe.
Comment 16 famo 2017-06-21 11:56:29 UTC
Yeah, didn't saw that on either.

However if it wasn't available in OOo at that time, this explains it.