The installation process is currently extremely unhelpful for users who a) do not want LO in en-US and/or 2) who do not have the luxury of a localized OS and/or 3) who want to choose a LO UI language other than their OS. At the moment, this process is unintuitive at the stage where the user selects what seems like a locale specific download file (but which does not automatically result in that locale being installed as default depending on the setup of their system). It is then similarly unhelpful when using the default installer (which is really what everyone downloads anyway) because the user has to *know* to choose Custom Installation to select the UI language they wanted. Most people don't and give up in frustration when the language they actually picked during download a) does not show up automatically and b) cannot even be selected manually in the Settings afterwards. This causes a lot of aggro on behalf of new/low tech users and creates a lot of unnecessary IT support requests for people trying to promote LO. 2 possible solutions: A) Do away with the pre-selection during download and the "hidden" selection of the UI language in the installation process which hardly anyone can find. Instead, make all languages selectable after installation by going to the Settings. This may require not shipping proofing tools with the default installer but downloading when a user selects a language other than en-US. B) Change the existing process so that: - if user downloads specific locale, desired locale should be installed and set by default (if this is impossible, then remove the misleading 'selection' from the download pages) - if user downloads default multi-locale build, whether your choose custom or default, user should be asked a simple question 'what language do you want for your UI?' - UI locales and proofing locales should be sorted alphabetically (those using non-Latin scripts to be sorted by romanization i.e. मराठी > listed as if written Marathi; 日本語 > listed as if written Nihongo.
This bug is related to the website, as such it should go to Redmine.
(In reply to comment #1) > This bug is related to the website, as such it should go to Redmine. No this is not primarily about the website. It is primarily about the LO *installer* and only tangentially involves the website.
(didn't we already have a bug for this?)
I can't find one, even amongst closed bugs and Sveinn also couldn't find one.
My suggestion: First screen from installer should be. "Please choose your LibreOffice language:" And then dropdown menu with localised language names sorted in alphabetical order. " Deutsch English (UK) English (US) Francais Hrvatski " Or english - locale " Croatian - Hrvatski English (UK) English (US) French - Francais German - Deutsch " And default selection (already selected) should be sistem (OS) language. From there everything should be in selected language, from installation to LibreOffice UI and localization options.
modifying the download as it happens is a no-go. Virus scanners would go nuts, you could not provide checksums/verification, digital signatures would be invalidated. Listing languages to pick will also present the user with an English "greeting"/instructions to pick a language, so only helps partially, as a "shortcut" to the customized installation. So it could just tell to pick "custom install" and select the language(s) to install" right away without /that/ much of a difference (IMHO). Ordering/romanization/labels of languages differ. So providing a list to pick from in effect forces to pick from English terms for the languages, even if started in a locale where auto-selecting the language of the installer would work. A localized dummy-installer (i.e. single-language, the one that was selected on the dl-page) that in turn calls the actual installer with some magic to select the language also isn't that nice, as it is an additional download or a "web installer" like thing that would need to download the real installer. This makes installing to multiple systems more complicated.
Some additional info can be found in this thread: <http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-l10n-Localisation-gone-wild-tt4042744.html#none> Especially the post: Mar 11, 2013; 9:37pm from Andras Timar. Seconded by post Mar 12, 2013; 7:55am from Andras. See also "Bug 50509 - Language selection is not possible with silent install", there are some useful pointers. So the matter is about MSI-packaging (and possibly a Windows bug)
(In reply to comment #6) > Listing languages to pick will also present the user with an English > "greeting"/instructions to pick a language, so only helps partially, as a > "shortcut" to the customized installation. So it could just tell to pick > "custom install" and select the language(s) to install" right away without > /that/ much of a difference (IMHO). No, the dialog should be shown in the autodetected (system) locale. It could say something like "Please choose your preferred UI language. It will be used by the installer and installed with LibreOffice by default." The choice made there should change the installer language and alter the defaults at run-time, so that the user would NOT have to choose custom installation if they only care about that one language. From my understanding, the current defaults are to install en-US and system locale. We could either replace "system locale" in this list with "chosen locale", or simply add "chosen locale" to it. Of course, that's assuming this is all possible with MSI.
What's wrong with the current situation where the language preference of the system administrator and the system locale define the UI languages installed?
At the risk of repeating myself: it removes user control over the UI language and it only caters well for monolingual speakers of really big languages. So if you're a German-only speaker on a German OS then you're dandy. If you're a Sorbian speaker in Germany on a German OS because there is no OS in your language or because you don't have the right hardware for the langpack for your language, you have a very frustrating experience of getting LO in the language you want. That applies to a LOT of potential users. We also had the case where someone was working on a company PC which had Chinese as an OS language but he actually wanted it in English but because the installer 'assumed' wrongly, he ended up with it in Chinese and of course once you have installed LO (http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/9648/simplifying-the-setting-for-installation-language/), there is no way of *adding* a langpack via settings, you have to run the installer again and you still have to guess that you need to run Custom Install. I end up putting in twice as much time promoting LO than, for example, VLC in my locale. With VLC I just have to describe the install process and then explain how to change the UI language in Settings. With LO I have to describe a really complex dance through Custom Install and I'm forever getting phonecalls and emails saying 'I installed LO because I heard from a friend its in Gaelic but it only comes up in English'. And not a single one, after I walk them through it, goes 'oh fair enough', they ALL go 'why is it this complicated to select your language?' Other possibilities that we might contemplate: Allow download of langpack (like downloading addons from the addon site) if the user selects a language in Settings (after install) that was not installed. Run some pre-installer. I don't know how it works but sometimes when the actual installer is really big, you get to download a much smaller file which walks you through some questions before it actually downloads the installation files. Or perhaps a first-run dialogue which offers the user to set the UI language and downloads if necessary?
(In reply to comment #9) > What's wrong with the current situation where the language preference of the > system administrator and the system locale define the UI languages installed? Well, there are several scenarios: -When your locale is not well supported in the OS -When you want LO to be in another language than imposed by the OS (think about foreign language teachers in schools, or translators) -When you want to be able to fine-tune multi language environments The reason for offering such possibilities in LO is plain politeness.
Normal people have to think about the language 1 (one) time only: on the Welcome screen of Windows install DVD. The installation process is intended to be simple for normal people. There is a *custom* installation option for fantastic scenarios affecting fractions of a percent you describe here. Also, there are some attempts at disinformation here which I will address: (1) LO can be easily installed with any UI language on the Chinese system; (2) Gaelic language (LCID 0x043C) is trivial to be selected as the system locale; if LO doesn't use it, it is a bug.
Not anymore. Windows *installs* only in about 6 languages these day, English, German, Chinese and a couple of others. Virtually *all* other languages from Win 7 onwards are handled by langpacks which the user has to install afterwards. Not that that's really relevant. The problem with custom installation (which is NOT fantastic by the way) is that anyone not working on LO does not expect the language selection to be there. You have to know. Or spend hours googling the problem. Or call/email people like me who have to spend 20 (unpaid) minutes talking them through something that should be obvious during installation. Oh and having to apologize several times for it being so unintuitive. And you completely ignore the fact that LO comes in more languages that you get OS in. Especially on Mac.
(In reply to comment #12) > Normal people have to think about the language 1 (one) time only: on the > Welcome screen of Windows install DVD. This is not entirely true. While countries which constitute big markets almost always get new computers tailored for them (with the right keyboard layout printed, right languages available to choose during first run, right manuals printed and so on), smaller markets are not always privileged with such attention. In Lithuania, for example, you can (or at least could, a couple years ago) often find new laptops on the shelves, which are produced for Scandinavian market. Guess if the buyer can choose Lithuanian as the UI language in these. Of course not. And for minority languages, to which Windows is not localized at all, the situation is even worse.
In Croatia it's common to have english Windows UI with croatian keyboard layout. We have croatian language pack for Windows UI, but I guess people which install it don't like it translated... For example my company laptop has that setup, and I didn't install Windows there. This results in LibreOffice UI in english with localisation preferences in croatian. I know how to change it, but I see a lot of people in company using LO in english since they don't even know they can change language which has automaticly been choosen. Place language chooser on first page of install screen. There a load of exuses here why not to do it, but any choosing option on first page is better then none. If you have language names translated, even if people don't understand question written in english (or whatever other language), they will eventualy figure it out when they see their language name in their language. Maybe you can have 2 languages shown on same screen by default, windows UI language and keyboard language, and then rest of languages. For example, this would be dropdown menu for my install on Windows 7, UI = English US, keyboard = Croatian HR: English (US) Hrvatski -------------- Deutsch English (UK) English (US) Francais Hrvatski
We're not just talking minority languages here either. There are many huge languages which are almost totally unsupported like Javanese (82 million speakers), Oromo (24m), Chichewa (12m), Sundanese (38m), Fula (25m)... it's a long list before you get to languages below 1m even.
User locale, system locale and windows UI language are different things. > often find new laptops on the shelves, which are produced for Scandinavian > market. Guess if the buyer can choose Lithuanian as the UI language in these. Why? If the administrator has selected Lithuanian locale (just for himself), LO will preselect Lithuanian UI no matter what Windows is localized in.
Will you quit going on about Windows? LO is a cross-platform product so to begin with, we need to consider Win/Mac/Linux. And you keep ignoring the point that there are many locales which just don't exist on at least one of them. The locales you're offered depend on the amount of weed the developer in question was smoking. And you also keep ignoring the fact that most users haven't got a CLUE what a locale is or where to set it. Which means that although in the UK we have at least 7 locales (Scottish Gaelic, Irish, Manx, Cornish, Jerriais, Welsh and English UK), most systems are set to English UK because that's what the default was. Not that any OS (apart from Linux perhaps) even offers Jerriais or Cornish.
Not sure if that's same guy which was trolling on mailing lists, but I think he is trolling you right now. :)
> Will you quit going on about Windows? This bug is about Windows-only MSI installer. And you keep ignoring the point that there are many locales which just don't exist on at least one of them. The locales you're offered depend on the amount of weed the developer in question was smoking. > Not that any OS (apart from Linux perhaps) even offers Jerriais or Cornish. And the last thing they need is LO in Jerriais. You are trying to inconvenience EVERYONE using English, Spanish or Russian language software so some Cornish ultranationalist would be spared 3 mouseclicks? Are you serious?
Urmas, I will ignore anything you say from now on. Fortunately I've been around LO long enough to know that your extremist view is not generally held. Good luck with all that hate.
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It's still an issue
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It's still an issue. I'm really surprised it still is though, as this represents an unnecessarily high barrier to new low-tech users.
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Did a complete uninstall of LibreOffice, went to the website, specifyied Scots Gaelic, downloaded 6.1.2, ran the default install, boom, English. Had to go to Modify to get Gaelic after installation. Windows 10 with the Scots Gaelic langpack installed and set to default. So it's not even picking up on the system locale. So yes, this issue persists.
Some technical details: 1. Installer UI language (on Windows; the bug is about MSI) depends not on OS language, but on the language set at "Region and Language" -> "Format" (accessible using intl.cpl command line). That is per-user setting. One might set the language there once, and if required, change all settings there manually to have, e.g., Croatian language + en_UK decimal separator settings. 2. Creating an additional installer screen (or better re-using existing "Welcome to the installation Wizard" screen) to place language selector (along with the text like "you may select the language of LibreOffice UI to install here - which is a shortcut for UI selection available under Advanced") is possible; feel free to jump in and make it happen. Personally I could provide you with advises; however, that's not an easy hack in my view. 3. However, selecting the language there *can not* change installer UI. This is limitation of MSI technology; and the only workaround is some bootstrap application mentioned in comment 6. Creating such bootstrap would be another, even bigger task. To choose installer UI language without changing Language -> Format, one may use ProductLanguage property with *decimal* [MS-LCID] value for any language supported by installer and OS (shown en_US; note that link below lists LCIDs in hexadecimal): > msiexec /i LibreOffice_X.Y.Z_Win_x64.msi ProductLanguage=1033 [MS-LCID] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/windows_protocols/ms-lcid/a9eac961-e77d-41a6-90a5-ce1a8b0cdb9c
>1. Installer UI language (on Windows; the bug is about MSI) depends not on OS language, but on the language set at "Region and Language" -> "Format" Clearly it doesn't because Gaelic is set as the language in Region and Language too.
(In reply to Michael Bauer from comment #29) It does. If for your language, it doesn't happen, that is a bug, which you are advised to file separately, stating the specific settings that don't end up with a desired result.
FTR: here is the list of LO *installer* UI language codes (from MSI summary information), along with their meaning as per [MS-LCID]: > 1033 English (United States) > 1078 Afrikaans (South Africa) > 1118 Amharic (Ethiopia) > 1025 Arabic (Saudi Arabia) > 1101 Assamese (India) > 1610 #N/A > 1059 Belarusian (Belarus) > 1026 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) > 2117 Bangla (Bangladesh) > 1093 Bangla (India) > 2121 Tamil (Sri Lanka) > 1150 Breton (France) > 1603 #N/A > 5146 Bosnian (Latin) (Bosnia and Herzegovina) > 1027 Catalan (Spain) > 2051 Valencian (Spain) > 1029 Czech (Czech Republic) > 1106 Welsh (United Kingdom) > 1030 Danish (Denmark) > 1031 German (Germany) > 1604 #N/A > 3153 Dzongkha (Bhutan) > 1032 Greek (Greece) > 2057 English (United Kingdom) > 7177 English (South Africa) > 1553 #N/A > 1034 Spanish (Spain) > 1061 Estonian (Estonia) > 1069 Basque (Spain) > 1065 Persian (Iran) > 1035 Finnish (Finland) > 1036 French (France) > 1122 Frisian (Netherlands) > 2108 Irish (Ireland) > 1084 #N/A > 1110 Galician (Spain) > 1095 Gujarati (India) > 1140 Guarani (Paraguay) > 1037 Hebrew (Israel) > 1070 Upper Sorbian (Germany) > 1081 Hindi (India) > 1050 Croatian (Croatia) > 1038 Hungarian (Hungary) > 1057 Indonesian (Indonesia) > 1039 Icelandic (Iceland) > 1040 Italian (Italy) > 1041 Japanese (Japan) > 1079 Georgian (Georgia) > 1625 #N/A > 1087 Kazakh (Kazakhstan) > 1107 Khmer (Cambodia) > 1574 #N/A > 1099 Kannada (India) > 1042 Korean (Korea) > 1111 Konkani (India) > 1120 Kashmiri (Perso-Arabic) > 1134 Luxembourgish (Luxembourg) > 1108 Lao (Lao P.D.R.) > 1063 Lithuanian (Lithuania) > 1062 Latvian (Latvia) > 1605 #N/A > 1071 Macedonian (North Macedonia) > 1100 Malayalam (India) > 1104 Mongolian (Cyrillic) (Mongolia) > 1112 #N/A > 1102 Marathi (India) > 1109 Burmese (Myanmar) > 1044 Norwegian (Bokmal) (Norway) > 1121 Nepali (Nepal) > 1043 Dutch (Netherlands) > 2068 Norwegian (Nynorsk) (Norway) > 1580 #N/A > 1132 Sesotho sa Leboa (South Africa) > 1154 Occitan (France) > 2162 #N/A > 1096 Odia (India) > 1094 Punjabi (India) > 1045 Polish (Poland) > 2070 Portuguese (Portugal) > 1046 Portuguese (Brazil) > 1048 Romanian (Romania) > 1049 Russian (Russia) > 1569 #N/A > 1103 Sanskrit (India) > 1606 #N/A > 1113 #N/A > 2074 Serbian (Latin) (Serbia and Montenegro (Former)) > 2133 #N/A > 1669 #N/A > 1051 Slovak (Slovakia) > 1060 Slovenian (Slovenia) > 1052 Albanian (Albania) > 3098 Serbian (Cyrillic) (Serbia and Montenegro (Former)) > 1579 #N/A > 1072 Sotho (South Africa) > 1053 Swedish (Sweden) > 1089 Kiswahili (Kenya) > 1097 Tamil (India) > 1098 Telugu (India) > 1064 Tajik (Cyrillic) (Tajikistan) > 1054 Thai (Thailand) > 1074 Setswana (South Africa) > 1055 Turkish (Turkey) > 1073 Tsonga (South Africa) > 1092 Tatar (Russia) > 1152 Uyghur (People's Republic of China) > 1058 Ukrainian (Ukraine) > 1091 Uzbek (Latin) (Uzbekistan) > 1075 Venda (South Africa) > 1685 #N/A > 1066 Vietnamese (Vietnam) > 1076 Xhosa (South Africa) > 2052 Chinese (Simplified) (People's Republic of China) > 3076 Chinese (Traditional) (Hong Kong S.A.R.) > 5124 Chinese (Traditional) (Macao S.A.R.) > 1028 Chinese (Traditional) (Taiwan) > 1077 Zulu (South Africa) It seems that there's no Gaelic there; or one of the "#N/A" codes might (wrongly?) be used for Gaelic, thus preventing proper identification. In former case, it's not a bug, but just a missing localization of installer (volunteer translators are always welcome). In the latter, in case a proper bug report appears, it might be fixed.
The 1084 case was Gaelic (Scotland) gd-GB, see bug 124791. The other #N/A cases almost all are/were user defined LCIDs MS doesn't/didn't have LCIDs for the language/locale: 1610 ast-ES Asturian 1603 brx-IN Bodo 1604 dgo-IN Dogri 1553 eo Esperanto 1625 kab-DZ Kabyle <<< should now be 2143 (0x085F) 1574 kmr-Latn-TR 1605 mai-IN Maithili 1112 mni-IN Manipuri <<< MS lists it (0x0458) as reserved for mni-IN 1580 nr-ZA Ndebele, South 2162 <<< there is no such thing, we don't define it and MS doesn't either, but it's wrongly used (since f586a64f8fcae5d342bf3323bb367b9b048de384) for om-ET Oromo, which is 1138 (0x0472) 1569 rw-RW Kinyarwanda <<< should now be 1159 (0x0487) 1606 sat-IN Santali 1113 sd-Deva-IN Sindhi, Devanagari <<< MS lists it (0x0459) as reserved for sd-Deva-IN 2133 <<< there is no such thing, we don't define it and MS doesn't either, but it's wrongly used (since f586a64f8fcae5d342bf3323bb367b9b048de384) for si-LK Sinhala, which should be 1115 (0x045B) 1669 sid-ET Sidama 1579 ss-ZA Swazi 1685 vec-IT Venetian So, altogether there are four that need to be changed in l10ntools/source/ulfconv/msi-encodinglist.txt kab 0 1625 <<< should now be 2143 rw 0 1569 <<< should now be 1159 om 0 2162 <<< should be 1138 si 0 2133 <<< should be 1115
@MikeKaganski: Would be appreciated if you could test MSI with https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/71247 Thanks.
Eike Rathke committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/0dcbc797a6cf7dc58ad17aae20bf0ccc7973cab1%5E%21 Related: tdf#82184 correct wrong or obsoleted LCIDs for MSI It will be available in 6.3.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Eike Rathke committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "libreoffice-6-2": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/8d8a759da7ca6d2ae9aa53986d40cbbd106ffb86%5E%21 Related: tdf#82184 correct wrong or obsoleted LCIDs for MSI It will be available in 6.2.4. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Mike Kaganski committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/840db2a536938a8c6fa6018db48e4a6dd419db9b Related: tdf#82184: consider installer language for UI list to install It will be available in 7.1.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
*** Bug 146987 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
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