Bug 101349 - Default set of table styles
Summary: Default set of table styles
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
5.3.0.0.alpha0+
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
QA Contact:
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords: needsUXEval
: 106308 (view as bug list)
Depends on: 107606
Blocks: Writer-Table-Styles
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2016-08-06 07:04 UTC by Yousuf Philips (jay)
Modified: 2017-05-30 06:47 UTC (History)
10 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
ms word 2010 table styles (55.66 KB, application/wps-office.docx)
2016-08-06 07:04 UTC, Yousuf Philips (jay)
Details
current LibreOffice AutoformatStyles (25.09 KB, text/odt)
2016-08-06 11:17 UTC, Cor Nouws
Details
ms word 2010 ribbon UI table styles (19.23 KB, image/png)
2016-08-15 20:14 UTC, Yousuf Philips (jay)
Details
WPS table styles (29.84 KB, image/png)
2016-08-15 20:20 UTC, Yousuf Philips (jay)
Details
1st collection of table styles (18.59 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2016-08-16 20:05 UTC, Yousuf Philips (jay)
Details
Various table styles (19.00 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2016-08-23 13:10 UTC, Heiko Tietze
Details
A pure gray table with banded rows (17.47 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2016-08-23 23:11 UTC, Regina Henschel
Details
Typical academic table style (2 variants) (15.09 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2017-03-02 18:43 UTC, Gerry
Details
element variants of ms word 2010 table styles (57.09 KB, image/png)
2017-05-04 10:27 UTC, Yousuf Philips (jay)
Details
Table style update (38.65 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2017-05-11 07:13 UTC, andreas_k
Details
Overview how the Andreas_Styles will look like (541.37 KB, application/pdf)
2017-05-11 07:15 UTC, andreas_k
Details

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Description Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-06 07:04:36 UTC
Created attachment 126625 [details]
ms word 2010 table styles

Jakub (udap) has enabled table styles in the styles and formatting sidebar, but presently it only has table styles from Table > Autoformat Styles, which arent very pleasing, so we need to come up with a new set of defaults to supplement the 17 that we already have.

I've attached a document with all the 45 table styles available in MS Word 2010 for people to look through and comment on the ones they like. For those interested in designing their own table styles, please create them with a minimum of 5x5 table size and submit them as attachments here. Would be useful to show examples of usage in these designed table styles.
Comment 1 Heiko Tietze 2016-08-06 08:05:36 UTC
Ideally we attach XML files, but so far the styles are stored binary.
Comment 2 Cor Nouws 2016-08-06 11:17:39 UTC
Created attachment 126628 [details]
current LibreOffice AutoformatStyles
Comment 3 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-15 20:14:01 UTC
Created attachment 126849 [details]
ms word 2010 ribbon UI table styles

So to clarify, attachment 126625 [details] contains only the base variants (mainly grayscale) of the default themed ribbon UI table styles. The attached screenshot includes all the default themed ribbon UI styles.
Comment 4 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-15 20:20:40 UTC
Created attachment 126850 [details]
WPS table styles

Here are the default table styles in WPS/Kingsoft office.
Comment 5 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-16 20:05:24 UTC
Created attachment 126858 [details]
1st collection of table styles

So here is a first attempt at a collection of grayscale table styles, so please give your input on it, primarily the ones you like the most. Colored versions of the chosen grayscale styles will then need to be created, hopefully by those who have a good palette sense, as i don't. :D
Comment 6 Cor Nouws 2016-08-23 10:53:40 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #5)

> please give your input on it, primarily the ones you like the most. 

Well, for what it's worth, my preference: Simple list 4, 8, 9, 7
Comment 7 Heiko Tietze 2016-08-23 13:10:32 UTC
Created attachment 126985 [details]
Various table styles

Adding another draft. 

In general, we should have a very simple style that fits 80%. Furthermore we need a full-features style to illustrate what is possible. And something for financial tables. Finally _a few_ design ideas would be good (the 100+ options in Word makes no sense since users can easily change all attributes themselves).

I suggest to also ask the community like we do regarding templates, for instance.
Comment 8 Jean-Francois Nifenecker 2016-08-23 13:31:09 UTC
I fully agree with Heiko. Hundreds of examples are of no use. A few efficient templates showing what can be done using LibreOffice are a better way, IMO.

A call to the community to provide some examples/templates is the way to go as well.
Comment 9 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-23 20:59:30 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> In general, we should have a very simple style that fits 80%. Furthermore we
> need a full-features style to illustrate what is possible. And something for
> financial tables.

Definitely.

> Finally _a few_ design ideas would be good (the 100+
> options in Word makes no sense since users can easily change all attributes
> themselves).

MSO has 43 autoformat table styles, where only 1 of them are shown by default, and 14 new table styles and 6 document theme-colored variants of those new table styles (total is 99 :D). It makes perfect sense to provide colored variants of table styles as

1) most users arent creative enough to colorize table styles (i include myself in that category)
2) modifying table styles isnt an easy task that novice users (benjamin) would be able to do or advanced users (eve) would want to do
3) the point of presets is to simplify the amount of changes the user has to make

We definitely dont need 7 variants of each table style design, but having 3 or 4 of each would be beneficial (1 black/white and 2 or 3 colorized).

> I suggest to also ask the community like we do regarding templates, for
> instance.

Yes asking the creative minds in the community to assist with styles and colorization would be useful.
Comment 10 Regina Henschel 2016-08-23 23:11:09 UTC
Created attachment 126995 [details]
A pure gray table with banded rows

I have created it with a Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha0+
Build ID: 44216ddbc620a1c05e98dda1f63ed6df0eae5275
CPU Threads: 4; OS Version: Windows 6.1; UI Render: default; 
Locale: de-DE (de_DE); Calc: group

The example shows some features like banded rows and separate styles for the corner cells.

To apply the table template to your own table, open the attached document and then find the table template in the Table section of the Style&Formatting pane in the sidebar.

I think it is misleading to name it "table style", because it is not a style for a table, but a "table template" is <quote>a set of references to table cell styles</quote>.

I think, that the current implementation produces invalid ODF, so it is too early to make final templates. Unfortunately there was no interest on dev to discuss that.
Comment 11 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-24 07:36:36 UTC
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #10)
> The example shows some features like banded rows and separate styles for the
> corner cells.

Looks quite nice but unfortunately because the style wasnt created on a 4x4 table, some of the features werent imported into the auto generated table style.

> I think it is misleading to name it "table style", because it is not a style
> for a table, but a "table template" is <quote>a set of references to table
> cell styles</quote>.

Dont think it is misleading to call it table styles, as that is what ODF calls it and what other office suites call it.

> I think, that the current implementation produces invalid ODF, so it is too
> early to make final templates. Unfortunately there was no interest on dev to
> discuss that.

We can create the design our intended set of table styles/templates and we can await for the code implementation to catch up to properly produce it. If you find issues with it producing invalid ODF, please report bugs for it so jakub can look into it.
Comment 12 Regina Henschel 2016-08-24 13:08:15 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #11)

> Looks quite nice but unfortunately because the style wasnt created on a 4x4
> table, some of the features werent imported into the auto generated table
> style.

? What "feature" are you missing? If you mark the whole table and use Table > AutoFormat Styles and then button Add, you get all the cell styles. The size 4x4 is only a minimum, you can use larger prototypes as well.
Comment 13 Regina Henschel 2016-08-24 14:13:36 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #11)

> Dont think it is misleading to call it table styles, as that is what ODF
> calls it and what other office suites call it.

The <table:table> element (9.1.2) has an attribute table:template-name and an attribute table:style-name. The style, which is referred by table:style-name is of type table and therefore has only those attributes listed in <style:table-properties> (17.15) and those do not contain anything from the table template. For to be a style a table template would need a style:name attribute, but it has a table:name attribute. And it would need to be child of a <style:style> element. But that is not the case. Therefore my conclusion is, that the <table:table-template> element is no style.
Comment 14 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2016-08-25 22:43:06 UTC
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #12)
> ? What "feature" are you missing? If you mark the whole table and use Table
> > AutoFormat Styles and then button Add, you get all the cell styles. The
> size 4x4 is only a minimum, you can use larger prototypes as well.

Seems the build i was using from the 16th didnt update the table style correctly (Styles & Formatting sidebar, table styles tab, update style).

(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #13)
> The <table:table> element (9.1.2) has an attribute table:template-name and
> an attribute table:style-name. The style, which is referred by
> table:style-name is of type table and therefore has only those attributes
> listed in <style:table-properties> (17.15) and those do not contain anything
> from the table template. For to be a style a table template would need a
> style:name attribute, but it has a table:name attribute. And it would need
> to be child of a <style:style> element. But that is not the case. Therefore
> my conclusion is, that the <table:table-template> element is no style.

Though we dont presently support table styles in the <style:style> tag, we will in the future. Ultimately we dont have to call things by their ODF definition name if we decide that the name used isnt suitable.
Comment 15 Regina Henschel 2016-08-25 23:01:54 UTC
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #14)
> Though we dont presently support table styles in the <style:style> tag, we
> will in the future.

Please can you tell me more about such plans, perhaps in a direct mail to me in case it is to long for this issue? The current implementation on master has some problems, but in principle it follows the ODF 1.2 specification.

 Ultimately we dont have to call things by their ODF
> definition name if we decide that the name used isnt suitable.

How this feature is presented to the user is indeed a different problem.
Comment 16 Gerry 2017-03-02 18:43:40 UTC
Created attachment 131584 [details]
Typical academic table style (2 variants)

I attached a typical academic table style (e.g. as they are used in many academic journals), in two variants. It would be great to have such academic table styles.

Academic styles are usually quite basic. There is no shaded area and only horizontal lines. 

Variant 1 shows that the first row has a horizontal top border and horizontal bottom border. The last row has only a horizontal bottom border.

Variant 2 is almost the same like variant 1, but the last row represents a summary row and therefore additionally has a horizontal top border. 


It would be great if you could add such academic table styles to the default set of table styles
Comment 17 Heiko Tietze 2017-03-04 20:27:49 UTC
*** Bug 106308 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 18 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2017-04-24 14:26:27 UTC
(In reply to Gerry from comment #16)
> Academic styles are usually quite basic. There is no shaded area and only
> horizontal lines. 

Looks similar to the 'Simple List 8' style i was proposing, so we'll definitely have something close to it.
Comment 19 andreas_k 2017-05-02 08:28:54 UTC
I'd like to separate the table styles into two areas

1. Printout documents
---------------------
if you have a look at printed tables the best styled tables you will find in LaTeX and I found two documents why LaTeX produce nice tables [1] [2]:
- never use vertical lines
- avoid "boxing up" cells, usually 3 horizontal lines are enough (above, below and after heading)
- avoid double lines
- enough space between rows
- if in doubt, align left

2. screen documents
-------------------
This type of documents are styled for the screen OR for high-quality press documents. Therefor I'd like to look to webdesign and annual reports.
Here are some rules for webdesigners [3]:
- Tables love space. Set the width of tables carefully, according to the content. If you don’t know the perfect width, simply set the width of the table to 100%. Tables look nicer when they have “overwidth”, and when it comes to tables too much width is definitely better than too little width.
- Cells need some padding. Sure, each table cell relates to each other. But it doesn’t mean that we have to pull them too close, right? Define some space between the cells, crammed up table cells are so much harder to read
- Treat tables the way you treat content. Tables are read similarly to the way we read text — except it’s harder and it takes more time to read a table. So be careful with the amount of contrast you are giving to your table. Use soft colors — it’s easier for the eyes. Don’t treat your table like it’s a graphical decoration. Make sure that the style you apply to it makes the content more readable, not the other way around.

I will make some design examples for printout and screen documents and hope you like them.

[1] https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/markusp/teaching/guides/guide-tables.pdf
[2] https://www.tug.org/pracjourn/2007-1/mori/mori.pdf
[3] https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/08/top-10-css-table-designs/
Comment 20 Heiko Tietze 2017-05-02 11:30:45 UTC
(In reply to andreas_k from comment #19)
> I'd like to separate the table styles into two areas

While the paragraph styles provides an hierarchical organization we do not have it for other types. And actually going with only two top-level categories (print and screen) makes not much sense to me. 
On the other hand I fully agree with a couple of _plain_ styles. But in the end it's up to the user to choose the right one and to layout the document. Table styles are not capable to align depending on the content (numbers, text, currency...), you would have to provide different variants, which is awkward IMHO. Table style can define padding but not the column/table width and row height. Check out https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2015/12/13/style-your-tables/

And finally I would wait for the outcome of the survey. We want to keep the community involved rather than design by committee. That doesn't mean that the likely high-rated "Scientific" style cannot be refined or supplemented later. But if the users down-vote "3D", for instance, we shouldn't invest much in this variant.
Comment 21 andreas_k 2017-05-02 11:42:21 UTC
I don't want to separate the table style layout widget.

It's more about there should be some styles for print output and for screen output, and I also understood that we should waite for the survey result. In addition there are some examples that will fit the print and screen output very well.
Comment 22 Yousuf Philips (jay) 2017-05-04 10:27:24 UTC
Created attachment 133062 [details]
element variants of ms word 2010 table styles
Comment 23 andreas_k 2017-05-11 07:13:58 UTC
Created attachment 133228 [details]
Table style update

I made a table style for
- List Style in black and colored
- Box Style in black and colored
- Grid Style in black
- Bill Layout
- Statistic layout
- Data analytic layout
- Newspaper Layout

The first 3 Styles will work for a config dialog like in Impress. I also show how the table will look like at different (not all) settings.

and some additional stuff like how to find the best border width, ...
Comment 24 andreas_k 2017-05-11 07:15:11 UTC
Created attachment 133229 [details]
Overview how the Andreas_Styles will look like
Comment 25 Heiko Tietze 2017-05-18 07:57:40 UTC
(In reply to andreas_k from comment #24)
> Created attachment 133229 [details]
> Overview how the Andreas_Styles will look like

1.3 Bill layout: Right align all columns perhaps?
1.3 Data analytic layout: the alternating grays are too different to my taste
2.1 and 2.2 have contrast issues, e.g. either darker yellow or black font color

There are numerous resources like http://www.colorsontheweb.com/Color-Theory/Color-Contrast and contrast checkers http://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/

2.1 Green lines? Don't see a purpose for that despite from how attractive it is
2.2 IMHO we should deliver not more than four different colors