Bug 106560 - Calc cell number format categories should be described in Help
Summary: Calc cell number format categories should be described in Help
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Documentation (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
5.2.5.1 release
Hardware: All All
: medium minor
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2017-03-15 21:50 UTC by gmarco
Modified: 2022-01-13 21:37 UTC (History)
2 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
CALC-cell format 1 (76.31 KB, image/jpeg)
2017-03-15 21:50 UTC, gmarco
Details
CALC-cell format 2 (261.40 KB, image/jpeg)
2017-03-15 21:50 UTC, gmarco
Details
CALC-cell format 3 (149.71 KB, image/jpeg)
2017-03-15 21:51 UTC, gmarco
Details
CALC-cell format 4 (161.85 KB, image/jpeg)
2017-03-15 21:51 UTC, gmarco
Details
downloaded help (46.79 KB, image/jpeg)
2017-03-16 21:30 UTC, gmarco
Details
calc CELL FORMAT screenshot (125.59 KB, image/jpeg)
2022-01-12 21:03 UTC, gmarco
Details
help GUIDE 1°step (208.43 KB, image/jpeg)
2022-01-12 21:05 UTC, gmarco
Details
help GUIDE 2°step (180.89 KB, image/jpeg)
2022-01-12 21:07 UTC, gmarco
Details
Format screenshot (69.58 KB, image/jpeg)
2022-01-13 15:00 UTC, gmarco
Details
new screenshot (178.10 KB, image/jpeg)
2022-01-13 21:37 UTC, gmarco
Details

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Description gmarco 2017-03-15 21:50:09 UTC
Created attachment 131917 [details]
CALC-cell format 1

When will a complete revision of help with alignment to reality?
Here is another case in point regarding the "Format" menu.
- clicking on "Formato" menu (screen #1), and from here on the help button it displays screen #2 that does not help at all.
- going online we find two different two different lists of items (screen #3)
- looking than at cell formatting still two different item lists (screen #4)
- now, in the app menu displays a "Divisore" category of which there is no trace in any help (what is it?).
Comment 1 gmarco 2017-03-15 21:50:46 UTC
Created attachment 131918 [details]
CALC-cell format 2
Comment 2 gmarco 2017-03-15 21:51:18 UTC
Created attachment 131919 [details]
CALC-cell format 3
Comment 3 gmarco 2017-03-15 21:51:53 UTC
Created attachment 131920 [details]
CALC-cell format 4
Comment 4 Buovjaga 2017-03-16 10:07:19 UTC
(In reply to gmarco from comment #0)
> When will a complete revision of help with alignment to reality?

You make so many reports about docs that I think you should join the team: http://documentation.libreoffice.org/en/join-community/

-> NEW
Comment 5 gmarco 2017-03-16 17:08:13 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 6 Buovjaga 2017-03-16 17:28:40 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 7 gmarco 2017-03-16 21:29:46 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 8 gmarco 2017-03-16 21:30:54 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 9 Buovjaga 2017-03-17 05:48:20 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 10 gmarco 2017-03-17 08:57:25 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 11 Buovjaga 2017-03-17 09:22:04 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 12 gmarco 2017-03-17 11:05:29 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 13 Buovjaga 2017-03-17 17:34:45 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 14 gmarco 2017-03-17 18:25:20 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 15 Olivier Hallot 2022-01-12 17:37:59 UTC
Pressing F1 in dialog shown in attachment#1 shows the right Help page.

https://help.libreoffice.org/7.2/en-US/text/shared/01/05020300.html?System=UNIX&DbPAR=CALC&HID=cui/ui/numberingformatpage/NumberingFormatPage#bm_id3150147

Version: 7.2.2.2 / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 02b2acce88a210515b4a5bb2e46cbfb63fe97d56
CPU threads: 16; OS: Linux 5.13; UI render: default; VCL: kf5 (cairo+xcb)
Locale: pt-BR (en_US.UTF-8); UI: pt-BR
Calc: threaded

Closing - worksforme
Comment 16 gmarco 2022-01-12 21:01:02 UTC
Hi Olivier, I don't like to insist but I contest that it can be classified as "worksforme".
It seems to me that, from 2017 to today, nothing substantial has changed: the original problem has remained the same.
I will limit myself to just one example: suppose I want information and help on the "Divisore" (in IT) format (from Format> Cells> Numbers) by clicking on "Help" (see attachment "help.jpg").
What I find is disarming: misinformation and nothing useful (see attachments "guida1" and "guida2": they are in IT but nothing changes in the EN version).
If you explain to me how an "apprentice" would acquire what he is looking for, I will be grateful.
Comment 17 gmarco 2022-01-12 21:03:41 UTC
Created attachment 177506 [details]
calc CELL FORMAT screenshot
Comment 18 gmarco 2022-01-12 21:05:03 UTC
Created attachment 177507 [details]
help GUIDE 1°step
Comment 19 gmarco 2022-01-12 21:07:25 UTC
Created attachment 177508 [details]
help GUIDE 2°step
Comment 20 Buovjaga 2022-01-13 06:28:04 UTC
Please use direct links in the future to save time for others.

(In reply to gmarco from comment #18)
> Created attachment 177507 [details]
> help GUIDE 1°step

https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/01/05020300.html?DbPAR=CALC

(In reply to gmarco from comment #19)
> Created attachment 177508 [details]
> help GUIDE 2°step

https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/scalc/main0105.html?DbPAR=CALC

So I understand gmarco's complaint to be about the help page not explaining what the different formatting categories *are*. We have this page about formats, but it is like a deep dive: https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/01/05020301.html?&DbPAR=CALC

gmarco: is your request to write new content, like a summary about each of the format categories?
Comment 21 gmarco 2022-01-13 15:00:12 UTC
Created attachment 177526 [details]
Format screenshot
Comment 22 gmarco 2022-01-13 15:01:29 UTC
(In reply to Buovjaga from comment #20)
> gmarco: is your request to write new content, like a summary about each of
> the format categories?

Here what I mean, even if it is only an example related to the specific topic under consideration.

Your choice is to call it "Divisore" (MS calls it "Frazione" and you too in the Guide) but you should still offer an explanation of what that type of formatting means (not everyone is able to understand this and understand how to use it).

In the current Guide it is impossible to find an effective help:
searching with the word "divisore" you get 
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.2/it/search?P=divisore  but nothing related to the format,
you can go to https://help.libreoffice.org/7.2/it/text/shared/01/05020300.html?&DbPAR=WRITER&System=WIN
... and then, from there?
searching INSTEAD with "frazione" you get https://help.libreoffice.org/7.2/it/search?P=frazione
and then from here ("Inserire frazioni") you get also https://help.libreoffice.org/7.2/it/text/scalc/guide/fraction_enter.html?&DbPAR=WRITER&System=WIN
but wherever  it is adopted the term "frazione" and, in any case, a valid explanatory guide on the use of the format "Divisore"  is not available.

To better explain what I mean, I take for example the help offered by MS (in IT but it should also be found in EN):
https://support.microsoft.com/it-it/office/numeric-formati-available-in-excel-0afe8f52-97db-41f1-b972-4b46e9f1e8d2
where you find "Frazione - Visualizza un numero come frazione, in base al tipo di frazione specificato dall'utente." (translation: Fraction - Displays a number as a fraction, based on the type of fraction specified by the user)
and then, in relation to "Frazione":
https://support.microsoft.com/it-it/office/visualizzare-i-numbers-as-fractions-0121ecac-1773-4f2d-8cd3-7db51fd83b77
where it is well explained how to display numbers as fractions.

It would also be useful to specify that the formats shown are only pre-set examples, but the user can choose to customize the fractional format to his liking (see attached sample.jpg for a cell containing the number 1,5).
Comment 23 Rafael Lima 2022-01-13 20:08:14 UTC
> Your choice is to call it "Divisore" (MS calls it "Frazione" and you too in the Guide)
> but you should still offer an explanation of what that type of formatting means (not
> everyone is able to understand this and understand how to use it).

Gmarco, maybe this is a translation issue. In English the term used is "Fraction" which is the same in MS Excel [1]. A review could be done in the Italian translation for more consistency?

[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/available-number-formats-in-excel-0afe8f52-97db-41f1-b972-4b46e9f1e8d2

As for the rest, I believe the "Numbers" page [2] could use some improvement. We can explain that the options available are only presets and what they do can be seen in the "Format code" box.

[2] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.4/en-US/text/shared/01/05020300.html?&DbPAR=CALC&System=UNIX
Comment 24 gmarco 2022-01-13 21:36:24 UTC
(In reply to Rafael Lima from comment #23)
> > Your choice is to call it "Divisore" (MS calls it "Frazione" and you too in the Guide)
> > but you should still offer an explanation of what that type of formatting means (not
> > everyone is able to understand this and understand how to use it).
> 
> Gmarco, maybe this is a translation issue. In English the term used is
> "Fraction" which is the same in MS Excel [1]. A review could be done in the
> Italian translation for more consistency?
Yes, I think the term "Frazione" is more adequate, as the Guide too uses that one.
 
> As for the rest, I believe the "Numbers" page [2] could use some
> improvement. We can explain that the options available are only presets and
> what they do can be seen in the "Format code" box.
> 
> [2]
> https://help.libreoffice.org/7.4/en-US/text/shared/01/05020300.
> html?&DbPAR=CALC&System=UNIX
Yes, but it may not be enough, it would not explain its meaning and use (as more fully indicated in the MS help).
And the meaning of my speech is: an help should help less experienced people to easily find useful information by finding in the guide what appears in the menus. And this is almost never the same: see, for example, the guide I get pressing PF1 file:///C:/Program%20Files/LibreOffice/help/it/text/scalc/main0105.html?DbPAR=CALC link and the new screenshot attached (where menu and guide differ).
Comment 25 gmarco 2022-01-13 21:37:07 UTC
Created attachment 177532 [details]
new screenshot