I'm experimenting with numbered lists in writer and I noticed that every time I create a new list separated from a previous one by other text even chapters away I have to tell writer that it must restart the number from 1. If I don't click on the button to restart the number from 1 writer continues from the previous last value of the previous list. I can't find any AUTOMATIC way to restart the number in a certain style. MS Word has it. If I remember well it is enough to check an option "Restart numbering after .... style" and set the style after witch I want word to restart the numbering of my new list. Very useful feature to prevent the need to indicate manually every time the need to restart the numbering of a list. I hope that this feature will be implemented in writer because to have a numbered list that continues its numbering from a previous one is point less almost everywhere. Also it is more or less everywhere illogical to have the software that has a default behavior that keeps the same number from previous lists all along the document: this behavior is more or less never wanted. Maybe i can understand that to continue from previous element even if it is far away, it is useful just in chapters titles / headers to continue the same numbering or structure from the previous chapter or sub-chapter. But in lists inserted in normal text the default behavior IMHO must be that writer restarts the numbering for each new list. The user will decide to click the button to continue from the previous just where needed. Please can you check this behavior and change it in future Libreoffice releases? Thank you so much for the attention.
If this isn't enough, try moving the first element of a numbered list that has set to restart the numbering from 1. Suppose to move it to the 3rd position after 1 and 2... It continues to keep the n. 1 and in the meanwhile the first one doesn't start anymore from 1 as it has to be but continues from the previous list's last element... this breaks the list correct numbering and so even here is needed the user intervention to reset the correct behavior of the list itself. These behaviors are the same in the last version of Libreoffice: at the moment the 6322 I've just downloaded and I'm playing with it a bit.
(In reply to zionoto from comment #0) > I'm experimenting with numbered lists in writer and I noticed that every > time I create a new list separated from a previous one by other text even > chapters away I have to tell writer that it must restart the number from 1. > If I don't click on the button to restart the number from 1 writer continues > from the previous last value of the previous list. I can't find any > AUTOMATIC way to restart the number in a certain style. Context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List Result: A new numbered list is created => RESOLVED NOTABUG
(In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #2) > (In reply to zionoto from comment #0) > > I'm experimenting with numbered lists in writer and I noticed that every > > time I create a new list separated from a previous one by other text even > > chapters away I have to tell writer that it must restart the number from 1. > > If I don't click on the button to restart the number from 1 writer continues > > from the previous last value of the previous list. I can't find any > > AUTOMATIC way to restart the number in a certain style. > > Context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List > Result: A new numbered list is created > > => RESOLVED NOTABUG This works but nevertheless the way LibreOffice behaves when applying the style set as numbered list is weird because it has to create a new list directly without the need for the user to act as you suggested: simply it isn't logic to have a continuation of a list after paragraphs of other texts or even separated by chapters. A new list chapters away or paragraphs away from the previous one must created starting from 1. Only when the user needs a continuation (that is a really rare case) hits the button to continue from the previous list. But such a case doesn't happen frequently so LO IMHO has to act in the most logical way: it has to create a new numbered list starting from 1 as default behavior, not as a continuation of a previous one. Consequentially, IMHO, this still remains as an abnormal behavior of LO Writer: maybe it is wanted, maybe it is not a bug, nevertheless it's the wrong way to go. So I beg you think again a bit longer about that. IMHO this issue deserves a more accurate evaluation even about ergonomics, easiness and usability of the software. Personally I vote to keep this issue open and not as solved. So I ask to correct it or at least to add an option to set into the style the desired behavior so the user can customize it as needed from time to time. Thank everybody so much for comprehension. Cheers.
(In reply to zionoto from comment #3) > (In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #2) > > (In reply to zionoto from comment #0) > > > I'm experimenting with numbered lists in writer and I noticed that every > > > time I create a new list separated from a previous one by other text even > > > chapters away I have to tell writer that it must restart the number from 1. > > > If I don't click on the button to restart the number from 1 writer continues > > > from the previous last value of the previous list. I can't find any > > > AUTOMATIC way to restart the number in a certain style. > > > > Context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List > > Result: A new numbered list is created > > > > => RESOLVED NOTABUG > > > This works [...] I checked it better and actually... it doesn't work well either: in fact that command seems to reset some parameters to the default. For example I set a style with a specific first row indentation and after that command the indentation is resetted to the original value: it doesn't respect my setup into the style. So I'm sorry but some problem is present in the feature and I believe it has to be handled to make it behave the right way. I am reopening the status of the bug. Please check again. thanks
Zionoto, you can't confirm your own bugs => back to UNCONFIRMED
I just regognized, that I can't reproduce creating a new list in the way Idescribed in comment one in Version: 6.4.0.0.alpha1 (x64) Build ID: cc57df8f942f239d29cb575ea5a7cb01405db787 CPU threads: 4; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 18362; UI render: GL; VCL: win; Locale: de-DE (de_DE); UI-Language: en-US Calc: threaded but it is possible in Version: 6.3.3.1 (x64) Build-ID: f41f4c7f9507aeca13cb9df51f34d80e8ba30a99 CPU-Threads: 4; BS: Windows 10.0; UI-Render: Standard; VCL: win; Gebietsschema: de-DE (de_DE); UI-Sprache: de-DE Calc: threaded I don't know, if this is a desired change or not. I think there should be a possibility to restart numbering in an easy way. cc: Design Team
When I test this with 1,2,3, dt+f3 (some dummy text between), and 1,2,3 with numbering the numbers it restarts for the second list. So please provide an example.
Very strange behaviour: 1. Open a new document 2. Enter some empty paragraphs 3. Mark paragraphs => Button "Toggle Numbered List" 4.
Very strange behaviour: 1. Open a new document 2. Enter some empty paragraphs 3. Mark paragraphs => Button "Toggle Numbered List" 4. Add some empty paragraphs below the previous paragraphs 5. Mark new paragraphs 6. Open context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List 7. Result: New List 8. Add some empty paragraphs below the previous paragraphs 5. Mark new paragraphs 6. Open context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List 7. Result: Previous list continues Actual result: Same button brings different results Expected behaviour: Shouldn't happen Version: 6.4.0.0.alpha1 (x64) Build ID: cc57df8f942f239d29cb575ea5a7cb01405db787 CPU threads: 4; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 18362; UI render: GL; VCL: win; Locale: de-DE (de_DE); UI-Language: en-US Calc: threaded
(In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #9) > 3. Mark paragraphs => Button "Toggle Numbered List" > 6. Open context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List Mind the different actions. One list is styled as "List 1" (actually it has no style, check the (f)odt) the other has the newly introduced list style "Numbering 123" (taken into the saved file). Admittedly, it's far from being clear to the user. Take also care whether you add the last break to the list. IIRC, it is the reason why things are continued or not. There are smarter people than me knowing all about the background.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #10) > Mind the different actions. One list is styled as "List 1" (actually it has > no style, check the (f)odt) the other has the newly introduced list style > "Numbering 123" (taken into the saved file). Admittedly, it's far from being > clear to the user. I agree, that it is unclear to the user. > Take also care whether you add the last break to the list. IIRC, it is the > reason why things are continued or not. There are smarter people than me > knowing all about the background. So the rule seems to be: - If there is the same numbering style before, LO continues numbering using Context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List - If a new numbering style is introduced (like Numbering 123), the numbering continues using Context menu => Bullet and Numbering => Number List This is indepent from adding the last break to the list or not. Toggle Numbered List Button always continues the last list. So not a bug, but perhaps the need for at least a little improvement to make numbering more user friendly. I suppose an easy way could be to add "Restart Numbering" to paragraph context menu.
I think that the most logical default behavior of this is as follow: 1. paragraph with number 2. paragraph with number 3. paragraph with number normal paragraph 1. paragraph with number 2. paragraph with number 3. paragraph with number in other words when I apply a style with numbers in it, LO must start from 1 as happens in HTML ordered lists when I create a new list. All the style formatting is applied as well but it restarts from one. Example in HTML: <ol class="mylist"> <li>paragraph with number</li> <li>paragraph with number</li> <li>paragraph with number</li> </ol> <p>normal paragraph</p> <ol class="mylist"> <li>paragraph with number</li> <li>paragraph with number</li> <li>paragraph with number</li> </ol> Why? Most of the time when a user creates new lists some paragraph or even some chapters after the last numbered list, (s)he wants a list that starts from 1 not from 5 or 10 or else. I have to say that even MS Word does it the wrong way as LO does (just tried v. 2010 and I remember 2003 had the same IMHO wrong behavior). The HTML example above in fact is IMHO the most logical way ordered lists have to behave by default. And I hope LO (and Word) will follow HTML model as well. Sometimes when I edit complex documents in MS Word I also get mad because when I update the style in certain situations MS Word renumbers all instances of the numbered lists that are separated and must start from 1 but it make them to continue so I have to go manually and hit Restart at 1 more and more and more times... Sorry but this is really UGLY! And this is also a motivation to make it work as HTML does that doesn't have any problem: a new list is really a NEW list. IMHO it largely preferable that when the numbered list style is applied restarts by default and IF the user needs to continue from the previous numbering (s)he clicks Continue numbering from right click menu or toolbar or else, but this happens so rarely, even in complex documents. So I hope LO and MSWord (and others) will follow the same HTML model that is intuitively the most logical.
(In reply to zionoto from comment #12) > I think that the most logical default behavior of this is as follow... 1. It's a major pain when you want to add text between the list item. You may have simple lists in mind but things can become more complex. 2. Restarting is easier than continuation. > And I hope LO (and Word) will follow HTML model as well. How would the example above work with html with automatic numbering? It doesn't. > IMHO it largely preferable that when the numbered list style is applied > restarts by default and IF the user needs to continue from the previous > numbering (s)he clicks Continue numbering from right click menu or toolbar > or else, but this happens so rarely, even in complex documents. The only option that comes in my mind is per different list styles. Every time you add a paragraph without bullets some new "List <foo>" style is created. By that you can easily switch the style and continue with the previous list. BUT (it's a very big "but"), how are users supposed to know this? It would also clutter the list of list styles, makes it hard to figure out what is being used. So my take is NAB.
(In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #11) > So not a bug, but perhaps the need for at least a little improvement to make > numbering more user friendly. I suppose an easy way could be to add "Restart > Numbering" to paragraph context menu. What about this idea, Heiko?
(In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #14) > What about this idea, Heiko? It's on the agenda for the weekly meeting.
(In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #14) > (In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #11) > > So not a bug, but perhaps the need for at least a little improvement to make > > numbering more user friendly. I suppose an easy way could be to add "Restart > > Numbering" to paragraph context menu. > > What about this idea, Heiko? That already is available in LibreOffice .. ?!
Created attachment 155591 [details] Screenshot of Bullet and Numbering context menu in LO 6.4 (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #16) > That already is available in LibreOffice .. ?! No. (see screenshot)
Restart Numbering is available when you are in a list (the confusion comes again from the fact of hidden instead of disabled menu entries). Not sure where the cursor is in your screenshot but tested it with master and it works well. So let's resolve this as WFM.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #18) > Restart Numbering is available when you are in a list (the confusion comes > again from the fact of hidden instead of disabled menu entries). Not sure > where the cursor is in your screenshot but tested it with master and it > works well. > > So let's resolve this as WFM. Cursor is in empty paragraph.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #18) > Restart Numbering is available when you are in a list (the confusion comes > again from the fact of hidden instead of disabled menu entries). Not sure > where the cursor is in your screenshot but tested it with master and it > works well. > > So let's resolve this as WFM. I agree with the problem of hidden menu: I prefer disabled ones because even if they aren't clickable users know that they exist and they are there... in hidden menus we don't know that.
(In reply to zionoto from comment #20) > (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #18) > > Restart Numbering is available when you are in a list (the confusion comes > > again from the fact of hidden instead of disabled menu entries). Not sure > > where the cursor is in your screenshot but tested it with master and it > > works well. > > > > So let's resolve this as WFM. > > I agree with the problem of hidden menu: I prefer disabled ones because even > if they aren't clickable users know that they exist and they are there... in > hidden menus we don't know that. Even sub-menus and tabbed toolbar are a problem: I prefer plain toolbars and menus with just separators (lines that separate different groups of commands) in this way I have to go just into that menu and I see in just a eye shoot everything and I don't have to look for what I need in all sub-menus to find it. Same for tabbed toolbars: with plain toolbars I point on the command and click: simple as that. With tabbed toolbars I first have to search for the command into all of them to find the function I'm looking for to execute and then click on it: it's kinda of one click vs 4 or 5 clicks. Conclusion the tabbed toolbar layout is a very time consuming layout: I deeply hate it! In fact i keep it disabled because I work with plain toolbars that I customize as I need to make my work faster. Simple as that. In MS Word 2003 and previous it was great to customize and move buttons from one tool bar to another: just with Alt+left click and drag. After just a lot of problems in finding what I need and jumping from a tab-page to another every second: a mess. I hate MS Office > 2003 for this and I abandoned that software. Please don't make the same mistake because LO is great just the way it is with plain toolbars. Maybe a little more evolved but it's ok with the current philosophy. Thanks
I agree with the OP in that the issue appears to be a lack of intuitive design. It does not work as premium word processors like WordPerfect and Word do. If the intent is to create a worthy replacement, one must first do what is expected and only then improve upon it. I want to be able to turn on and off numbering in my outline, and I want to be able to restart whenever I wish. The choices must be obvious and not hidden in any way at all. Such is currently not the case. Thank you.
Ok I found something interesting: in Word there is an option to make a numbering restart after another style used in previous paragraphs. Let me explicate in the following comment: 1) Create a style with numbered list. 2) Write some paragraphs of text then apply the style to it. 3) Now add some other paragraphs of different styled text to the document 4) Then create a new numbered list with further paragraphs using the same style. In this case the number continues from the previous list. MS Word in a dialog has some option saying "restart numbering after level ________ " in this option you can choose the level of the previous paragraph that triggers the numbered list to restart automatically when separated from the previous list by such an intermediate paragraph (at least one paragraph, but of course they could be more the just one) formatted with another style indicated by the user. I'll add an animation to better show it. Basically I'm looking to have the same behavior in LO.
Created attachment 165089 [details] A description of what ms word does Ok this is the animation of MS Word option dialog to automatically restart the list numbering from 1: It is an animated PNG, hope you have a compatible browser to see the animation because animated PNG isn't a standard format file. So some browser don't support it yet.
Created attachment 165093 [details] Animated PNG showing what I mean Ok, here in this animate png I'm going to show what I usually get from LO Write, hope it helps to better understand what I meant in the OP. Please also refer to the previous attachment in which I show what MSWord does.
UX input has been given with the recommendation to resolve as wf.
FYI, WordPerfect does similar to zionoto's example.
(In reply to kitchm from comment #22) > I agree with the OP in that the issue appears to be a lack of intuitive > design. It does not work as premium word processors like WordPerfect and > Word do. If the intent is to create a worthy replacement, one must first do > what is expected and only then improve upon it. > > I want to be able to turn on and off numbering in my outline, and I want to > be able to restart whenever I wish. The choices must be obvious and not > hidden in any way at all. Such is currently not the case. > > Thank you. I agree: LOW acts with a lack of intuitive behavior for a bunch of things. This is just one of them. Nevertheless LO is the best candidate to be the strongest concurrent of MS Office. Anyway the logic way to go IMHO is if an editor creates a list, than insert any other paragraph of any different style (ie a Title, a normal paragraph, etc.), than inserts a new second list, this new list has to restart from 1 its numbering even if the style used is the same of first list. This is IMHO the way to go, because rarely is needed to continue the numbering of the second list from the previous list: most of the time if an editor creates two separated lists (s)he wants to create two independent lists and NOT a continuation of the previous. Only if the editor wants an explicit continuation of the previous numbering than hits "continue numbering from previous" button/menu. This is the most ergonomic and logic behavior. At least each style containing a numbered list must have an option to set the desired behavior wanted by the editor for that style. MS Word has "Restart after...name of the style" that does the trick automatically. So a Word user can set the numbering to restart after a single paragraph of a certain style. Unfortunately even Word lack of something: that option works only for Title styles. I hope LO will implement a similar option that works for all styles not only for Titles.
Thanks, zionoto. You describe a good solution. Building a new word processor should be predicated upon using the foundational principles of those that went before. While there is always room to improve the wheel, reinventing it is never a good idea.
(In reply to kitchm from comment #29) > Thanks, zionoto. You describe a good solution. Glad it is appreciated.
(In reply to Dieter from comment #9) > Very strange behaviour: see bug 135871 (In reply to zionoto from comment #0) > I'm experimenting with numbered lists in writer and I noticed that every > time I create a new list separated from a previous one by other text even > chapters away I have to tell writer that it must restart the number from 1. Were you using the same List Style for your lists? "If you have more than one list in a document, the second and subsequent lists with the same style continue their numbering from the previous list. To restart at 1, place the cursor anywhere in the paragraph you want numbered 1, right-click, and choose Restart numbering in the context menu." (Writer's Guide 6.4, p. 217) > If I don't click on the button to restart the number from 1 writer > continues from the previous last value of the previous list. I can't > find any AUTOMATIC way to restart the number in a certain style. Neither can I. > Maybe i can understand that to continue from previous element even if it is > far away, it is useful just in chapters titles / headers to continue the > same numbering or structure from the previous chapter or sub-chapter. It can also be useful in scientific texts, where one might want to be able to write Hypothesis 1, Hypothesis 2, Hypothesis 3...(or Prediction 1, 2, 3, or Assumption 1,2,3, or all three, therefore each with its own style)...that is running continuously across chapters. (put the word "Hypothesis" in the "Before" field in Customize and you are good to go). (Same principle for books that want to have a running list of "Tips" or "Good Idea" or "Exercise" across sections or chapters). So there are good reasons to keep this feature. But maybe if a simple "Shift-double-click" would automatically include a "restart numbering" when applying a List Style with numbering from the Styles Sidebar, then it would not disrupt the workflow significantly, would achieve what you are seeking, even if not exactly automatic, and could probably be accomplished as an "EasyHack". (This proposal is neutral about the more ambitious ideas of having an "intelligent, automated logic" about when to add "restart". It is meant only to provide a meaningful practical improvement that could be achieved relatively quickly.)
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #32) > (In reply to Dieter from comment #9) > > Very strange behaviour: > see bug 135871 Sorry, should be: bug 135895
I read all this and this bug is for closing. It wasn't correct from the start, because regular bug is precise : steps, experienced, expected.. and this is more user story with too much general talk. There's a mix of manual and style numbering. As explained, it's ok NAB that style numbering is continued. Single useful issue I noticed is Restart option for a style - but let it be bug 95219. Another issue can be to improve documentation. *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 95219 ***