Created attachment 160849 [details] style action icons Honestly, the new default macOS icon theme doesn't look that great or fit very well with the mac OS esthetic. I'm sorry to have to make this harsh criticism knowing someone has put effort into this, but in general it lacks maturity and should be reverted to the old default (Breeze). The previous icon themes have been used for a long time in many projects, giving a lot of time to address detailed design issues (see a few specific criticisms below). The icon set is a core part of the visual identity of Libreoffice and critical to its appeal and usability. I don't think it is a good approach to change the default to something that has not been extremely thoroughly tested, revised, and reviewed. I have never come across any complaints about the use of Breeze icons on macOS, better to stick with what is known to work. Some specific design issues: - Excessive use of color and color contrasts. Most macOS software today uses relatively muted/grayscale icons with color only to highlight actions where relevant (see for example the Mail app). The most 'icon heavy' app that people will have seen regularly is probably MS Office suite, which adopts a muted scheme similar to Breeze and Colibri. - Apparent icon sizes are inconsistent. Issues in how the icon contents visually 'fill' their space mean they look untidy next to each other. Achieving a consistent look across all icons is going to be difficult and require a lot of work. - Some of the icons are extremely cluttered (see attachment), which makes them look amaturish. Now I don't want to upset whoever produced these icons, but its important to understand that the icon set of an app like Libreoffice is a critical part of its UI and should not be changed lightly.
Xisco/Heiko: one for you?
(In reply to jon.chambers3001 from comment #0) > > Honestly, the new default macOS icon theme doesn't look that great or fit > very well with the mac OS esthetic. I'm sorry to have to make this harsh > criticism knowing someone has put effort into this, but in general it lacks > maturity and should be reverted to the old default (Breeze). I find Sukapura acceptable - not my favorite perhaps, but acceptable nonetheless and definitely a step up from Breeze, which I have always hated. > tested, revised, and reviewed. I have never come across any complaints about > the use of Breeze icons on macOS, better to stick with what is known to > work. > See above. Personally, being visually impaired and working on a small screen, I have found Breeze to be a nightmare. Instant recognition is not one of its strongpoints IMHO. I have always been of this opinion ever since it came out. I imagine that other people have their favorites / likes / dislikes as well. Thus an intractable problem. Haters are gonna hate, lovers are gonna fawn.
Don't see much more than "I don't like it" (which means WONTFIX). Color and details are creative freedom to me and the liking part can be customized (even the completely outdated icon sets are available per extension). Sorry, Jon. Many thanks for reporting!
I disagree this is a good design approach for a project of the scope and scale of Libreoffice. I make two fundamental points which are not a question of taste. 1. The icon design objectively does not match the style adopted by native mac applications. A quick look at a screenshot from the Mail app (https://help.apple.com/assets/5E1913CC0946229D2D1A0E52/5E1913CF0946229D2D1A0E59/fr_FR/0242d76629056c783ba33b07f79609d9.png) can tell you this. 2. More generally, making a change of this size is not something that needs to be extensively considered and consulted on. I do not see that this has been very much discussed in the libreoffice design, notably as to whether the change is needed at all. And to add a third point in response to your comment: > Color and details are creative freedom to me and the liking part can be customized I don't think this has to do with the creative freedom of individuals, because you are talking about the entire visual identity of your software. If you want people, businesses, and governments to take it seriously as an MS Office alternative, you need to yourself to take design seriously. I believe that in this case stability should win out - unless there is evidence of a pressing need to change the default, the default should not be changes.
> > I don't think this has to do with the creative freedom of individuals, > because you are talking about the entire visual identity of your software. > If you want people, businesses, and governments to take it seriously as an > MS Office alternative, you need to yourself to take design seriously. I > believe that in this case stability should win out - unless there is > evidence of a pressing need to change the default, the default should not be > changes. I can agree with you on that - some FOSS projects feel the need to rebrand / reinvent themselves on a regular basis, LibreOffice is not an exception in that regard. Quite why that urgent "need" is felt and acted on, I have never really understood.
(In reply to jon.chambers3001 from comment #0) > Created attachment 160849 [details] > style action icons > > Honestly, the new default macOS icon theme doesn't look that great or fit > very well with the mac OS esthetic. I'm sorry to have to make this harsh > criticism knowing someone has put effort into this, but in general it lacks > maturity and should be reverted to the old default (Breeze). > > The previous icon themes have been used for a long time in many projects, > giving a lot of time to address detailed design issues (see a few specific > criticisms below). > > The icon set is a core part of the visual identity of Libreoffice and > critical to its appeal and usability. I don't think it is a good approach to > change the default to something that has not been extremely thoroughly > tested, revised, and reviewed. I have never come across any complaints about > the use of Breeze icons on macOS, better to stick with what is known to > work. > > > Some specific design issues: > > - Excessive use of color and color contrasts. Most macOS software today uses > relatively muted/grayscale icons with color only to highlight actions where > relevant (see for example the Mail app). The most 'icon heavy' app that > people will have seen regularly is probably MS Office suite, which adopts a > muted scheme similar to Breeze and Colibri. > > - Apparent icon sizes are inconsistent. Issues in how the icon contents > visually 'fill' their space mean they look untidy next to each other. > Achieving a consistent look across all icons is going to be difficult and > require a lot of work. > > - Some of the icons are extremely cluttered (see attachment), which makes > them look amaturish. > > > Now I don't want to upset whoever produced these icons, but its important to > understand that the icon set of an app like Libreoffice is a critical part > of its UI and should not be changed lightly. While I can agree that icon sizes might be improved upon I'll address the other points you make. LibreOffice tries to adopt a look specific to each Desktop Environment/Operating System. The Breeze icon set that was being used in MacOS is the icon set for the Plasma Desktop Environment. It was never supposed to be the native MacOS icon set. Nevertheless, this option was not removed from LO 7.0 so you can select this icon set if you want to. The look of Sukapura is mostly inspired by the icon set of Microsoft Office for Mac, which is also a specific icon set for MacOS. It might not follow all the guidelines of MacOS but LibreOffice faces similar constraints. It won't ever look as a native software in MacOS because of lack of developer man power, hence the next best thing is to create a look exclusive to MacOS that follows as many guidelines as possible. This leads to the next point: the color palette of Sukapura is Apple's own color palette. If you are criticizing the color palette then you are criticizing Apple's own choice. This is a matter of your own personal opinion. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/windows-and-views/toolbars/ If you check Apple's own guidelines, toolbars in MacOS can adopt either colorful Image Buttons or system controls, but not both. As it is obvious LibreOffice uses what Apple classifies as Image Buttons. Are they colorful? Yes. Do they follow Apple's guidelines? Yes. Are they made using Apple's color palette? Yes. So, you might not like them but Apple's guidelines were taken into consideration and your criticism is not valid beyond the scope of a personal opinion.
(In reply to jon.chambers3001 from comment #4) > 2. More generally, making a change of this size is not something that needs > to be extensively considered and consulted on. I do not see that this has > been very much discussed in the libreoffice design, notably as to whether > the change is needed at all. See bug 130500. If MPL was excluded, which is the fact on the app store, Breeze is/was not included and Tango was used as default on macOS. Tango is completely outdated and was retired recently (bug 132022). Before Breeze it was Sifr that was taken as default on macOS. The point is that you are very welcome to criticize single icon or actionable tasks but we don't drop Sukapura for one opinion. And again: you can change and use another theme.