Bug 140846 - "Contains" in Paragraph Style should identify "Outline" as "Chapter Numbering" (see Comments 17,18)
Summary: "Contains" in Paragraph Style should identify "Outline" as "Chapter Numbering...
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
7.2.0.0.alpha0+
Hardware: All All
: medium normal
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords: needsDevAdvice
Depends on:
Blocks: Styles-Dialog
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Reported: 2021-03-06 22:37 UTC by sdc.blanco
Modified: 2021-10-29 13:48 UTC (History)
2 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:
Regression By:


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Description sdc.blanco 2021-03-06 22:37:06 UTC
1. Edit Heading 1 Paragraph Style
2. Organizer tab, Contains

Actual:  (Outline) + 1

Expected: (Chapter Numbering - Level 1)

Explanation.

1. "Chapter Numbering" is the value shown for List Style property in Outline&List tab. Other values for List Styles are also shown by style name here.

2. The important thing is the word "Level" before the number, to correspond to the value in the "Outline Level" property.

3. No opinion about the punctuation between Chapter Numbering and Level.  Could be - + : /
Comment 1 Heiko Tietze 2021-03-09 11:38:53 UTC
If I use New on some existing PS and set an outline level I just get the number. For example, select Heading, click New at the top-right context menu, change outline level to Level 1. 

The code pointer for this is CntUInt16Item::GetPresentation() in svl/source/items/cintitem.cxx, but I'm not sure about the scope of this function.

The complete string is "Numbering(Outline) + 1" with "Numbering" coming from STR_NUMRULE_ON (see also bug 140845) and, I guess, "Outline" as defined and hard-coded with the style. Doubt we can change it.
Comment 2 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-09 11:43:30 UTC
I definitely would dislike any changes that make any strings in the Organizer description longer. The text there may become long itself because of large number of properties; to do so, it doesn't need help from us making short strings longer.

I don't see a problem at the moment, and this request seems to be "I look at this, and thought it would be nice", not "I had some problem myself, or here are links from forums with actual user confusion". A change for the change's sake IMO.
Comment 3 sdc.blanco 2021-03-09 12:13:51 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #2)
> I don't see a problem at the moment.
Look at Contains for Heading 1.

What is the meaning of "Outline" ?

What is the meaning of + 1  (or + n)?

Or try this:

1. Right-click on Heading in Style sidebar and choose "New"
2. Change Outline Level to "Level 3"
3. Press "Apply"
4. Select Organizer tab.

Result:  

Contains:
  3

What does 3 mean?

The issue here is to "give accurate information that can be interpreted meaningfully". Has nothing to do with "thought it would be nice".

I trust that your objection based on length  is not independent of consequences for understanding.

> "I had some problem myself
I did have those problems initially when I encountered them (at least in the sense of being uncertain about their meaning at first glance, and having to try to work out an interpretation - aided by pretty good knowledge about the relevant their likely meaning.)

If a user did not know that "Outline" is what "Chapter Numbering" used to be called, the meaning would be impossible to guess/interpret (and impossible to find in the dialog).   Same problem with "3".

The Contains information is needed to know what will happen if the Standard (Set to Parent) button is pressed.  The present information would not be useful in that situation.
Comment 4 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-09 12:21:17 UTC
But have you checked the tabs of the paragraph style dialog? Namely, the one named "*Outline* & Numbering"? And the entry there under "*Outline*" heading, specifically "*Outline* level"?

The feature *is* called Outline; it was also called then way in the menu, before renaming into "Chapter Numbering" in tdf#107573, which brought inconsistency everywhere. Look at bug 107573 comment 3 and bug 107573 comment 5 (especially the latter, which explicitly told "The intent is to only change the menu label ..." - see how that good intention backfired here).
Comment 5 Heiko Tietze 2021-03-09 14:36:14 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #4)
> ... renaming ... brought inconsistency everywhere

Point is that hard-coding strings is never a good idea. Renaming the function had good reason. But anyway, what do you think in light of "Numbering(Outline) 1" (which is broken despite from the "Outline" part) about changing "Numbering" to "List Style" (discussed in bug 140845)?
Comment 6 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-09 15:09:59 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)

Generally I like renaming "Numbering" to "List" (or "List Style" where appropriate) - that's a more correct term.
Comment 7 sdc.blanco 2021-03-10 22:29:22 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #4)
> But have you checked the tabs of the paragraph style dialog? Namely, the one
> named "*Outline* & Numbering"? And the entry there under "*Outline*"
> heading, specifically "*Outline* level"?
Yes, I am familiar with this tab. But the "outline" in Contains, mentioned in comment 0, has nothing to do with "Outline Level" -- if that was supposed to be the explanation of its meaning.
Comment 8 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-11 04:06:17 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #7)
> But the "outline" in Contains, mentioned
> in comment 0, has nothing to do with "Outline Level" -- if that was supposed
> to be the explanation of its meaning.

It is "Numbering based on Outline level". This is how it was created originally; "Outline numbering" was strongly connected with "Outline level".

But current inconsistent state (chapter numbering in one place, outline in another, and no connection between those now) is indeed confusing. I am strongly disagreeing with the "good reason" in comment 5. But whatever...

Maybe changing it in organizer could make sense, but only as a whole: replace "Numbering(Outline)" with "Chapter Numbering" (having a special case code in the function managing this).
Comment 9 sdc.blanco 2021-03-11 06:29:22 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #8)
> replace "Numbering(Outline)" with "Chapter Numbering"
I believe it should be:  "Outline" -> "Chapter Numbering".

"Numbering" (in this case) should be "List Style" (per comment 6)
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/112213
Comment 10 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-11 06:33:30 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #9)
> I believe it should be:  "Outline" -> "Chapter Numbering".

No. Exactly "Chapter Numbering", without anything else - to keep it short. You see yourself that when you set simply Outline level for a paragraph style, it is shown just as "1", without any decoration.

> "Numbering" (in this case) should be "List Style" (per comment 6)
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/112213

No. If we have *this* feature named "Chapter Numbering", then here we should use "Chapter Numbering" - as a special case, to refer to specific thing. Please no more inconsistencies.
Comment 11 sdc.blanco 2021-03-11 15:14:39 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #10)
> No. Exactly "Chapter Numbering", without anything else - to keep it short.
Let me restate/disambiguate like this:

MK proposes (in comment 8):  replace "Numbering^1(Outline)" with "Chapter Numbering^2"

My response (from comment 9):

"Numbering^1" should be (is now with bug 140845) "List Style"
"Outline" should be "Chapter Numbering^2"  

where ^1 and ^2 are only for identification, not to be included anywhere.

I don't see any disagreement about this change. Do you?
Comment 12 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-11 15:25:35 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #11)

I read your proposal to have this:

> List Style (Chapter Numbering)

for the case where current style takes part in Chapter Numbering. Am I reading it wrong?

I argued to that my perception, telling that "List Style (Chapter Numbering)" is too long, and it should only be "Chapter Numbering".
Comment 13 sdc.blanco 2021-03-11 16:00:52 UTC
@Mike, let me start from the beginning, to avoid ambiguity, and to point out what you already know.

1.  We agree that the "Contains" value for unmodified "Heading 1" PS starts with:

Western text: 130% + bold + Numbering(Outline) + 1 + Indent left....

2. And an unmodified "Heading" that gets edited so that a Numbering 123 list style is applied (in its Outline & Numbering tab) then its "Contains" value starts with: 

Western text: Liberation Sans + 14 pt + Numbering(Numbering 123) + From

3.  The first appearance of the string "Numbering" in both "Contains" line comes sw/inc/strings.hrc (and was just changed with bug 140845) so that it will now appear like this:
    List Style: (Outline)        (for Heading 1)
    List Style: (Numbering 123)  (for modified Heading)

4. One part of the OP here was that "Outline" should be "Chapter Numbering"  (because that is what appears in the "List Style" property in the Outline&List tab)

No new designs.  No additions.  Just using existing interface, but seeking consistency/clarity in labelling.

If you are unhappy about the length, then it is coming from the already existing design, not from my proposal. HTH.
Comment 14 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-11 16:05:16 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #13)
"Heading 1" should be:

  "Western text: 130% + bold + Chapter Numbering + 1 + Indent left...."

That it is different from normal list style text is OK, since the feature is quite distinct, and having it displayed differently would even help.
Comment 15 sdc.blanco 2021-03-11 16:41:11 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #14)
> "Heading 1" should be:
Ok --just to follow the implications...no provocation intended.  

then shouldn't "Heading" (with a list style) be:

   Western text: Liberation Sans + 14 pt + Numbering 123 + ...

and if Outline Level 4 was added to that modified Heading, then

   Western text: Liberation Sans + 14 pt + Numbering 123 + 4 ....
Comment 16 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-11 16:43:38 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #15)
> then shouldn't "Heading" (with a list style) be:
> 
>    Western text: Liberation Sans + 14 pt + Numbering 123 + ...
> 
> and if Outline Level 4 was added to that modified Heading, then
> 
>    Western text: Liberation Sans + 14 pt + Numbering 123 + 4 ....

No. I explicitly mentioned that "That it is different from normal list style text is OK", so it is intended that Heading with your proposed edits should be

  "Western text: Liberation Sans + 14 pt + List style (Numbering 123) + 4 ..."
Comment 17 sdc.blanco 2021-03-11 17:19:22 UTC
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #16)
> No. I explicitly mentioned that "That it is different from normal list style
> text is OK".
Just checking to be sure -- given that length was an initial concern.

So it seems then that everything is in place now for "normal" list styles.

And all that is missing is a modification so that "Outline" becomes "Chapter Numbering" and is not displayed through STR_NUMRULE_ON.  Is that correct?
Comment 18 Mike Kaganski 2021-03-11 18:13:09 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #17)

Exactly :-)
Comment 19 sdc.blanco 2021-03-12 09:06:49 UTC
Setting as New according to comment 17 and 18, modifying summary
Comment 20 phv 2021-10-29 13:48:07 UTC
I support the suggestion to pair the number with a label when it specifies an outline level. Currently, the user doesn't know what the number refers to, which is confusing.

I understand there is a constraint to how many info can be currently displayed in the Organizer tab, but this is another issue that needs to be fixed by adding a scroll bar or a tree view. This should not justify a flaw that seems obvious to me.