Bug 147963 - ENDNOTES: Provide option to set different page styles for left and right endnote pages
Summary: ENDNOTES: Provide option to set different page styles for left and right endn...
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
7.2.5.2 release
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: Footnote-Endnote Footnote-Endnote-Properties
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2022-03-13 14:39 UTC by ajlittoz
Modified: 2022-03-30 08:07 UTC (History)
5 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
No page style alternation, bad margins, faulty note order (14.57 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2022-03-13 14:41 UTC, ajlittoz
Details
Huge footnotes (14.35 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2022-03-29 08:43 UTC, ajlittoz
Details

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Description ajlittoz 2022-03-13 14:39:43 UTC
When endnotes become numerous, it is important to organize them in groups (through heading insertions) and adopt a nice presentation like mirroring pages.

However, endnotes do not seem to be handled by the "standard" text flow mechanisms and many features are either ignored or completely messed up.

The main tool to change endnotes formatting is the assigned page style which can be changed with Tools>Footnotes & Endnotes.

Part A - Assigning a page style different than Endnote

The goal is to alternate between Left Page and Right Page.

This doesn't work because "Next style" parameter is ignored. All endnots pages are formatted according to the page style declared in the configuration, but blank pages are inserted to cope with page parity constraint. However, blank pages are on the "wrong side".

As can be discovered through experiment, endnotes are sent to the footnote area of the page style (and this area is extended to the whole page) and the separator line is displayed "as usual". The fact that endnotes are in the footnote area results in formatting limitations, e.g. page breaks are forbidden.

When alternating page styles are configured, if the count of endnotes exceeds some threshold between 75 and 100 (I haven't investigated to find the exact value), the endnotes split in "blocks". Say we have enough notes for A.B.C where they would be listed in ascending order under normal circumstances. When the threshold is reached, notes are listed as A.C.B where A and B are in ascending order and C is in descending order!

Part B - Using built-in Endnote page style

Using Endnote is presently the only reliable solution but has severe restrictions. The mirror alternation is solved with unticking "Same content on left & right pages" but does not allow variations on margins.

Though notes are now in the contents area (I suppose so because I don't see the note separator, albeit I can't insert footnotes because the sub-menu is disabled), the same page break ban applies.

Part C - Common behaviour

If margins are changed after page style assignment, the changes are not reflected in the endnotes. One must first assign another style, then reassign the desired page style. This means page configuration is read only once when the notes configuration is changed and never afterwards.

Custom margins (different from default 2 cm) are ignored and page content area is shifted somehow randomly (one shift on page 1, another one on pages 2+). Some times the contents area may extend below the page limits, clipping text.

Here:
Version: 7.2.5.2.0+
Build ID: 20(Build:2)
CPU threads: 4; OS: Linux 5.16; UI render: default; VCL: kf5 (cairo+xcb)
Locale: en-US; UI: en-US
Calc: threaded

Reference:
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/writer-endnote-collection-mix-up/75079/14

Attached file:
Pages are set at A6 to quickly have several pages worth of text.
One lorem paragraph with an endnote at each word, for a total of 72 notes.
Same paragraph pasted to double the number of notes.

Endnotes settings configured for Left Page page style.

All above mentioned bugs occur. If second paragraph is erased, the descinding order bug disappears.
If page style for endnotes is restored to Endnote, only the margin issue persists.

See also bug 147400
Comment 1 ajlittoz 2022-03-13 14:41:59 UTC
Created attachment 178861 [details]
No page style alternation, bad margins, faulty note order
Comment 2 ajlittoz 2022-03-15 11:06:48 UTC
Update to my "Part B" statement:

Endnotes are in the note area of the Endnote page style, just the same as with other styles. Endnote page style is configured with no separator.
Comment 3 Dieter 2022-03-29 06:27:58 UTC
Ajlittoz, thank you for reporting the bug. Please don't put more than one problem into a report. Thank you. So let's focus on Part A.

I can confirm the problem: Although it's possible to assign different page styles to endnote pages, it seems, that it doesn't work. 

So possible solution would be to add an option to footnotes and endnotes dialog, to  assign a page style for left pages and a page style for right pages.

Since this is an enhancement request, let's ask design-team. I hope you agree.

cc: Design-Team
Comment 4 ajlittoz 2022-03-29 08:39:21 UTC
(In reply to Dieter from comment #3)
> Ajlittoz, thank you for reporting the bug. Please don't put more than one
> problem into a report.

IMHO, parts A & B are two faces of the same problem: endnotes are not managed by the standard page layout engine and seem to have a specific one. Perhaps all notes, even footnotes, go through an "exception" to standard page layout.

I presented part B as a workaround to the issue in part A but it is not satisfactory anyway because you can't tweak the page style.

> Thank you. So let's focus on Part A.
> 
> I can confirm the problem: Although it's possible to assign different page
> styles to endnote pages, it seems, that it doesn't work. 
> 
> So possible solution would be to add an option to footnotes and endnotes
> dialog, to  assign a page style for left pages and a page style for right
> pages.

I don't think this is the good track because it will make a difference between "standard" pages and endnote pages, instead of a uniform approach to page configuration.

Thinking aloud about the issue, I wonder if the cause could be the fact that notes are sent in the "note sub-area" which is "prisoner" of the surrounding page. This sub-area is not allowed to make modifications to said page because it could cause real trouble (for a hint, note that you can't enter a page break in any "note sub-area", including footnotes).

Pages with footnotes have a "text sub-area". You can then customise the page style and insert page breaks. Everything then behaves as expected.

Endnote page is a bit different. It looks like it has no "text sub-area" (the whole page area outside header and footer is dedicated to notes). Consequently, you can't act on the page and text flow. Perhaps, if you could create a "text sub-area", even when zero height (or the bare minimum needed so that it is not eliminated), this would solve the issue, enabling standard page style handling.

After all, you can have huge footnotes. But Writer enforces limits on the size of footnote area. It looks like the "text sub-area" has a minimum of 2.26cm (not even 1", so I don't see where this minimum comes from), even if Not larger than page area is selected. This is demonstrated in the FullPageFootnotes.odt sample file where I tried to simulate Endnote behaviour with footnotes. No matter how you configure the page style, you can't cover the page with footnotes.

This suggests contextual handling of notes, whether they are endnotes or footnotes. Perhaps having a look at this could solve the problem: being less limitative in the footnote case (so that Not larger than page area is effective), and introducing a tiny "sub-text area" in the endnote case (so that standard page management occurs).

> Since this is an enhancement request, let's ask design-team. I hope you
> agree.
> 
> cc: Design-Team

IMHO, this is not an enhancement request, unless specification explicitly states that present behaviour is intended. Endnote pages are part of a document and user expects to format them just like s/he can format other pages. For instance, not being able to change margins is not acceptable. The Writer Guide doesn't mention any restriction of this type.

For me it is a bug, not in the usual sense, but resulting from an implementation decision.
Comment 5 ajlittoz 2022-03-29 08:43:37 UTC
Created attachment 179180 [details]
Huge footnotes

Attempt to emulate Endnote page coverage with footnotes

Document is DIN A6 portrait so that pages are quickly saturated. Footnote extends over several pages. Footnote area is "Not larger than page area" but does not cover the whole page. a 2.26cm-high area is still reserved for main text.
Comment 6 Heiko Tietze 2022-03-29 09:43:46 UTC
(In reply to ajlittoz from comment #0)
> Part A - Assigning a page style different than Endnote
> The goal is to alternate between Left Page and Right Page.

Yes, if you have alternating pages for books you definitely want to same for endnotes.  

> When alternating page styles are configured, if the count of endnotes
> exceeds some threshold between 75 and 100 ... the endnotes split in "blocks".
> When the threshold is reached, notes are listed as A.C.B...

Cannot follow. Sounds like a different issue.

> Part B - Using built-in Endnote page style
> Using Endnote is presently the only reliable solution...

Yes

> Part C - Common behaviour
> If margins are changed after page style assignment, the changes are not
> reflected in the endnotes....

In the end, the issue boils down to the question whether endnotes can use page style freely. Mike, what is the blocker?
Comment 7 Mike Kaganski 2022-03-29 09:53:44 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> Mike, what is the blocker?

I have no idea :-)
I am totally sure that there must be no difference in the page style behavior when endnotes are in play; and if there is some special handling, it must be dropped (well, with a compatibility option maybe, since of course breaking existing documents is not nice).

(My related, but different idea is that our page style mechanism lacks a method of automatic choice of left/right page style depending on the first page number with a paragraph style with page style; that could be relevant here (you don't necessarily know which page would be the first for endnotes, and having different left/right page styles, you would have a problem with this), but indeed separate - just thought I mention before I forget again.)