Bug 148128 - Mark page center on horizontal and vertical rulers
Summary: Mark page center on horizontal and vertical rulers
Status: UNCONFIRMED
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: Rulers Snap
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Reported: 2022-03-22 05:22 UTC by m3521321
Modified: 2024-02-29 02:46 UTC (History)
6 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


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Description m3521321 2022-03-22 05:22:57 UTC
Description:
I often design notices and postings. While the horizontal and vertical rulers are helpful, they can be enhanced by adding a centering marker for the page. This would also assist persons who design brochures, as it will give them an idea of how the document will look when fully prepared without the need to resort to making tables, which can be problematic while adjusting to get the right size for inserting text. 

Adding a center marker is a simple matter of calculating the difference between minimum and maximum values and dividing by 2. If you guys wanted to really be creative, you could add a field to place the marker at a specific location on the page in local (user chosen) units. An additional enhancement for those of us who design documents which are location specific would be to place a phantom line across the page at the marker locations (both horizontal and vertical.

This feature would even assist users who do use table insertion as a means of entering location formatted text because the page can be more easily profiled where center lines are required. 

Actual Results:
Select "Rulers" from View menu.

Expected Results:
That there would be a way to select center lines for the page.


Reproducible: Always


User Profile Reset: No



Additional Info:
Have an option for locating and marking center lines for the page.
Comment 1 Heiko Tietze 2022-03-28 08:03:12 UTC
(In reply to m3521321 from comment #0)
> Adding a center marker...
Noted, thanks for submitting the idea.

> ... add a field to place the marker at a specific location on the page
Draw has the snap lines feature and might be better suited for exact positioning of text. We may also consider to have snaplines in Writer.
Comment 2 Cor Nouws 2022-04-05 12:10:33 UTC
No objection to the idea.

Two notes:
View > Grid and Helplines > Grid ..
  i.e. there is grid to use
View > Grid and Helplines > Helplines while moving
  lovely for images/objects
Comment 3 csongor 2022-04-05 13:31:05 UTC
I agree, this is a very useful idea. 

If such a feature is introduced, there is a lot of potential in it. Even if it won't be implemented in full depth right now, it should be considered in a way that can be extended in the future. 

In a long run, I am thinking of snap positions defined either relative or absolute way, compared to other anchors. For example:

- basic anchor positions can be called $leftOfPaper,  $rightOfPaper, $leftOfPage, $rightOfPage, $leftOfParagraph, $rightOfParagraph, $topOf..., $bottomOf... 
- new anchor positions can be derived from existing anchor positions with formulae, like 
-- ($leftOfPage+$rightOfPage)/4
-- $rightOfParagraph-20mm
-- etc.

Variables computed by such calculations could be used in positioning and sizing form fields. For example, the image width could be "$myValue" instead of "5.25cm" where $myValue is defined by a formula like ($leftOfPage+$rightOfPage)/4. The actual image width would change automatically   if the page size is changed from A4 to, say, A3.

I admit, it can get complicated if a user goes crazy but at the same time, it would give a lot of power how to position and size elements.
Comment 4 Heiko Tietze 2022-04-07 12:30:27 UTC
Good idea to snap but I'm afraid it's a bit more difficult.

First of all, the helplines are "volatile" in Writer - precise positioning is meant for Draw/Impress anyway. And if an object is selected the ruler measure the object in Writer while Draw only shows unobtrusive indicators.

So these snap points would be for Draw/Impress. However, setting a precise value for helplines is possible right now per right click and I'm afraid of overloading the rulers.

So my take is WF. Will leave this open for a while to get more input.
Comment 5 Eyal Rozenberg 2022-04-26 20:04:10 UTC
So, there's the page center, and there's the text area center. I don't want to muddy the waters, but both may be worthy of marking...

> First of all, the helplines are "volatile" in Writer - precise positioning is meant for Draw/Impress anyway.

Not quite sure what you mean here. You can place objects pretty precisely in Writer; and tabs are precise, aren't they?
Comment 6 Regina Henschel 2022-04-26 22:15:18 UTC
But what is "page center"? In regard to total paper size or only up to gutter?
Comment 7 Heiko Tietze 2022-04-28 06:37:06 UTC
The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting.

To mark the center is just half the rent and we should first of all think of a snap function. 

If we implement a feature it's preferably done across all modules, meaning the existing snap lines in Draw should be made available in Writer. Some enhancements are needed, for example the center of shapes/objects are not snappy yet. On the other hand, snap to grid exists in Writer and you could configure the grid so it has a snap position at the center.
 
Being able to snap objects at prominent positions is clearly a convenience feature and not only relevant for objects like shapes but also for tables. But the object position is calculated in relation to page and paragraph in Writer. With the Position & Size dialog you have plenty of options for a precise positioning. Draw/Impress don't have this structure and due to the freely placement of objects snaplines are crucial there.

If you are still interested in just marking the center, what workflow would be supported? And the center is not clear: does it include gutter, is it the center of the page or the text area (excluding margins, borders, spacing), and if so, are there many centers for columns or sections?
Comment 8 m3521321 2022-04-28 09:57:46 UTC
The original idea was to mark page center. I have not used Impress, or Draw. My needs are for smaller file size and centralized export format. If the page is defined for accuracy of placement, the page is probably defined in terms of pixels. Defining page center is a matter of half total page vertical pixels.

If Writer uses a page definition other than pixels, it would be more difficult to move the Impress/Draw format to writer. Margins are not an issue, only page center. The precision afforded by Writer should be good enough to define a center of the total page within a reasonable degree (less than or equal to 0.1 inch). That is all. Not wanting to ask too much, just enough to accomplish a specific task within reason.
Comment 9 QA Administrators 2022-04-29 03:45:53 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 10 Heiko Tietze 2022-04-29 06:31:32 UTC
The program works internally with twips and it's your choice at Tools > Options what unit to show in the UI. And if you want a shape to be at the precise center you can do it with more accuracy than aligning to some marking in the ruler.
Comment 11 m3521321 2022-05-04 05:10:42 UTC
The utility doesn't come from centering a graphic. It is to mark a page center. The workflow is primarily for notices and brochures, where text can be aligned vertically (or horizontally) to insure cutting the page will yield symmetry.

Again, depending on how the ruler is defined, it can either be relatively easy, or difficult. I recall using the viewport previously with regions to track what should be displayed when scrolling. Because the page and ruler can be synchronized with displayed text (using the scrollbar location on a zoomed page), it may be relatively easy either way. It gets much more complicated for zoomed out pages with more than 1 in the viewport.

Marking actual page center was just a suggestion which would make it easier for those of us who don't need the additional functionality afforded with Draw or Impress. I had no idea what might be involved with adding this function. Marking the center of the total page is what I was asking for. Not margins or gutters, etc. Even if using non-bordered tables to format text in this way (something I have done before), the center of the page will insure final document symmetry.

Sounds like this may be a little too much to ask for at least at this time. I totally understand the difficulty involved with producing quality software.

Thank you all.
Comment 12 Heiko Tietze 2022-05-04 06:55:36 UTC
You can use columns to organize text around the page center. Or use the whole page as one side of the brochure and print accordingly. You can also anchor/position a frame or text box at the page center - and place a table/object inside the frame.

While the implementation might be relative simple the feature itself is not clear enough. You may ask for the page center while other expect the center of the text area. And just having a mark does not help in any workflow. Last but not least the workflow to place elements exactly at more or less arbitrary positions is not suited for Writer. Keep in mind the KISS principle.

Putting all together my take is WF. Feel free to reopen and see if a developer volunteers
Comment 13 Eyal Rozenberg 2022-05-09 21:57:51 UTC
I want to be able to see the page center on the ruler. Marking things is what a ruler is for. Let's mark the centerpoint somehow, regardless of anything else.

> To mark the center is just half the rent

No, it's useful already on its own.

> and we should first of all think of a snap function.

Not "first of all". We can and should also think of a snap function.

> If we implement a feature it's preferably done across all modules, meaning the existing snap lines in Draw

A center snap line should be a different issue (and maybe I'll go ahead and open it). We shouldn't treat this issue as though it's about snap lines just because that's closely related.

> While the implementation might be relative simple the feature itself is not clear enough.

Let's clarify it then. I say: It should be the center of what the ruler measures with the "white strip", which IIANM is the text area.

> You may ask for the page center while other expect the center of the text area. 

> And just having a mark does not help in any workflow.

I'd say it helps in most workflows where you look at the ruler.

> Last but not least the workflow to place elements exactly at more or less arbitrary positions is not suited for Writer.

The horizontal center of the page is not an arbitrary position.
Comment 14 Cor Nouws 2022-05-10 07:11:57 UTC
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #13)
> I want to be able to see the page center on the ruler. Marking things is

Hi Eval.
Is you m3521321@gmail.com too?
And seeing the discussion, setting to 'unconfirmed' looks more logic.

> what a ruler is for. Let's mark the centerpoint somehow, regardless of
> anything else.
> 
> > To mark the center is just half the rent
> 
> No, it's useful already on its own.
> 
> > and we should first of all think of a snap function.

IMO the current problem with this issue is, that there are two questions being asked to the OP, m3521321@gmail.com, and we've had no reply.

ONE:
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #6)
> But what is "page center"? In regard to total paper size or only up to
> gutter?


TWO:
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting.
> ....
> If you are still interested in just marking the center, what workflow would
> be supported? And the center is not clear: does it include gutter, is it the
> center of the page or the text area (excluding margins, borders, spacing),
> and if so, are there many centers for columns or sections?


So could the OP be so kind pls :) ?
Comment 15 Eyal Rozenberg 2022-05-11 07:38:13 UTC
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #14)
> Is you m3521321@gmail.com too?

No, why? :-)

> And seeing the discussion, setting to 'unconfirmed' looks more logic.

So, this is an interesting semantic question. I assume that if something is marked as WONTFIX, that also means confirming the reported behavior. My reopening only challenged the decision not to fix it.

I have noticed, however, that there's a tendency to use UNCONFIRMED for what is essentially "confirmed, but we haven't decided what we think about it".
 
> IMO the current problem with this issue is, that there are two questions
> being asked to the OP, m3521321@gmail.com, and we've had no reply.
> 
> ONE:
> (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #6)
> > But what is "page center"? In regard to total paper size or only up to
> > gutter?
> 
> TWO:
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> > The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting.
> > ....
> > If you are still interested in just marking the center, what workflow would
> > be supported? And the center is not clear: does it include gutter, is it the
> > center of the page or the text area (excluding margins, borders, spacing),
> > and if so, are there many centers for columns or sections?
> 
> 
> So could the OP be so kind pls :) ?

Ok, NEEDINFO, makes sense I guess. But if OP doesn't answer in a while, let's just choose our own answers (and OP can later file another issue asking for behavior change etc.)
Comment 16 Cor Nouws 2022-05-11 09:02:31 UTC
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #15)
> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #14)

> No, why? :-)

I had the impression that you answered/tried to answer, questions that were asked to the OP ;)

> I have noticed, however, that there's a tendency to use UNCONFIRMED for what
> is essentially "confirmed, but we haven't decided what we think about it".

During discussion around if makes it sense, do we want it, it is not set to New.

> > So could the OP be so kind pls :) ?
> 
> Ok, NEEDINFO, makes sense I guess. But if OP doesn't answer in a while,
> let's just choose our own answers (and OP can later file another issue
> asking for behavior change etc.)

Despite your kind efforts to provide input, I still do not understand the idea/needs of the OP. So for me, if that remains unclear, I would set to WONTFIX (or invalid maybe).
Comment 17 Telesto 2022-05-11 09:54:24 UTC
Note: I personally don't care who argues for the Mark Page Center. If it's Eyal or original poster :-)

To me it's not a to bad idea, I have tendency to like it. However it isn't ironed out..

I don't think this being limited to Writer (it should be about Impress/Draw too). I even have tendency to use Draw as starting point.. as positioning being even more relevant in Draw (or Impress)

The topic has a clear connection with features like Grid, Helplines, Snap Guides and the align options (Left, Centered, Right, Top, Center Bottom) 

And well those markers have a lot in common with Paragraph Tab stops. You can 'abuse' the tab stop to mark the center (in case of Writer). 

I kind tending to manual configuring the 'center' marker (as can mean multiple things). So some fixed fixed, center of page thing doesn't make sense (works for group A, not for B, and group C doesn't care)

You could are the grid should have some 'center line' Or option to show a center line in 'grid'. More flexibility would be achieved by copying Tab Stop system 'setting' page markers. Which could function as 'snap area's' 

Note: this only bit of brainstorming :-)

Next issue would be need that stuff being stored inside the document or is it some locally stored system configuration?
Comment 18 m3521321 2022-05-11 11:11:02 UTC
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #15)
> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #14)
> > Is you m3521321@gmail.com too?
> 
> No, why? :-)
> 
> > And seeing the discussion, setting to 'unconfirmed' looks more logic.
> 
> So, this is an interesting semantic question. I assume that if something is
> marked as WONTFIX, that also means confirming the reported behavior. My
> reopening only challenged the decision not to fix it.
> 
> I have noticed, however, that there's a tendency to use UNCONFIRMED for what
> is essentially "confirmed, but we haven't decided what we think about it".
>  
> > IMO the current problem with this issue is, that there are two questions
> > being asked to the OP, m3521321@gmail.com, and we've had no reply.
> > 
> > ONE:
> > (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #6)
> > > But what is "page center"? In regard to total paper size or only up to
> > > gutter?
> > 
> > TWO:
> > (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> > > The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting.
> > > ....
> > > If you are still interested in just marking the center, what workflow would
> > > be supported? And the center is not clear: does it include gutter, is it the
> > > center of the page or the text area (excluding margins, borders, spacing),
> > > and if so, are there many centers for columns or sections?
> > 
> > 
> > So could the OP be so kind pls :) ?
> 
> Ok, NEEDINFO, makes sense I guess. But if OP doesn't answer in a while,
> let's just choose our own answers (and OP can later file another issue
> asking for behavior change etc.)


I actually did previously answer both of these questions.

ONE: Marking the center of the page is what I was originally asking for. That is the page proper. When designing documents, you are concerned about how the page looks to the audience. Electronically, the page can be defined in many ways. When printing for presentation, the idea is to use the page proper as an instrument for conveying information. It is a sheet of paper that is the final product. I have noticed that the margin metrics are not as accurate as they could be when viewing the document as it is being created. I often have noticed that the bottom margin looks far off from an equally spaced top margin. I asked for page center to avoid any inaccuracies at print time. Margins can be adjusted to compensate for any differences between view and print.

TWO: I am not sure what 'workflow' means in this context. Designing a document IS workflow for me.
Comment 19 Stéphane Guillou (stragu) 2024-02-29 02:46:06 UTC
Side-note on competitors:

OnlyOffice's word processor has, _as a default_, vertical and horizontal page centre helplines that dragged objects can snap to (both object's centre and edges). They only show when the object actually snaps to them - the same as MS PowerPoint.

LibreOffice Writer has options like grid, snap to grid, and helplines while moving, which are all turned off by default, and even if turned on they do not offer the same functionality as OnlyOffice or PowerPoint.

I think what OnlyOffice and PowerPoint have would be very useful in both Writer and Impress/Draw. But I guess that's what is already requested in bug 76070, and differs from OP's request to have a ruler marker that's always visible.

(I also had a look at MS Office 365 Word online, but it currently feels so broken (?) that I can't even move an object with the mouse.)

See also for Impress/Draw:
- bug 112624: snap line should default to centre of slide
- bug 112643: offer presets for snap line position

My take: New. It should be made easy to visualise the centre of the paper, to snap objects as well as to locate oneself on the page when zoomed in.
The implementation would ideally be made consistent with Draw and Impress, although I'd be OK with having it off by default in Writer. Using the snap guides for that makes sense to me.
So is the way forward to add snap guides to Writer, and then request for centre snap guides as in bug 112624?