Created attachment 180312 [details] Demonstration of Left Paragraph border and Right Paragraph Border The attachment demonstrates that the Horizontal positioning option (in the Position and Size dialog for shapes, images, etc.) for "Left paragraph border" is referring to the region between the left edge of the page text area and the left indent of the paragraph. (and same story for the "right" paragraph border). It is not easy to name these regions, but I propose that the following give a better indication than the current labels: "Left of paragraph indent" "Right of paragraph indent" (Caveat: This proposal is based on the current LO behavior. I cannot evaluate if this is the expected behavior for this option.)
Created attachment 180313 [details] Demonstration of Left Paragraph border and Right Paragraph Border Better demonstration -- notice negative first line indent and positioning of diamonds in presently named "left paragraph border" region.
Some terminology at bug 148782. The border spoils the broth. In fact whether the paragraph has indentation or border makes no difference. Perhaps we should keep the text simple and show the effect in the thumbnail. As it's the fact now, but there might be room for improvement.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2) > Some terminology at bug 148782. Good point. Used "indent" because I thought it would be easier to understand, but consistency with other options suggests (without objection from me): Left of paragraph text area Right of paragraph text area > In fact whether the paragraph has indentation makes no difference. ???? Not true. Use properties sidebar and change indentation (before, after, or first line), see shapes moving. > show the effect in the thumbnail. Take a look at the "preview" for the objects on the right in the attachment. Impossible to see a difference. (perhaps can be handled by increasing the width of the red rectangle). It is possible to see differences on the left -- if you know what you are looking for! (iow -- might be worthwhile to increase width of red rectangle on left as well)
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #3) > > In fact whether the paragraph has indentation makes no difference. > ???? Not true. Use properties sidebar and change indentation (before, > after, or first line), see shapes moving. Use either 4cm left/right indentation (and zero border) or 4cm for the border (and zero indent) - the objects remain at their place. > > show the effect in the thumbnail. > Take a look at the "preview" for the objects on the right in the attachment. > Impossible to see a difference. (perhaps can be handled by increasing the > width of the red rectangle). Of course I mean to improve the preview. Point is that we ponder over the terms quite long and with a lot of expertise. Doubt an ordinary user can follow these considerations if just one adjective is added.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > Use either 4cm left/right indentation (and zero border) or 4cm for the > border (and zero indent) - the objects remain at their place. Do not confirm. Just taking the left side: 1. The object on top will not move with indent change, because it is positioned to the Left of the region. 2. Open Property sidebar, increase the "Before text indent" in the spinbox, the middle and last objects change their position.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > Doubt an ordinary user can follow these considerations if > just one adjective is added. It is also the addition of a preposition and the removal of "Border", which suggests that the positioning is in relation to a reference line. Iow, the change indicates (correctly) positioning of an area, not an edge or line.
Created attachment 180317 [details] Screencast Indentation & Border Maybe the screencast makes it more clear.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7) > Maybe the screencast makes it more clear. Enough... Because your dialog box is covering the relevant diamonds, it is hard to see. But -- when I place my mouse cursor over the middle diamond (with (center) in your screencast -- and follow your change from 4cm to 0cm -- where I can see the length of the text line increases -- then I can also see that the position of the diamond changes in relation to the mouse cursor. It will be easier for you to see what is happening if you would follow the advice to use the Paragraph section in the Properties Sidebar. (and maybe focus on the middle diamond, which should be the most visible). At the same time, your experience may help you to understand why a name change is appropriate -- because the relevant area here is from the left edge of the page text area (which is why the first diamond never moves) and the left edge of the paragraph text area (which is why the lowest diamond is always tracking the left edge of the paragraph). This why Left paragraph border should be "Left of Paragraph text area".
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #6) > (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > > Doubt an ordinary user can follow these considerations if > > just one adjective is added. I agree that an individual label in this context will never be able to explain its meaning by itself.... ...but two additional considerations that shift the perspective from the semantic meaning of an individual label to a perspective of the meaning of that label in its immediate context. 1. If you have experience with (understanding of) other labels like "Left of page text area" which is also a possibility here, then you have a better chance of guessing the meaning of "Left of paragraph text area" (compared to the current "Left paragraph border"). 2. It always a matter of choosing one label among a limited list of possibilities, so the label is often being interpreted in relation to the other possibilities. For example, there is "paragraph text area" in the same dropdown list -- so if you know "Paragraph text area" -- then you will have a better chance to guess the likely meaning of "Left of paragraph text area".
We discussed the idea in the design meeting. The revised "Left of paragraph text area" conflicts somewhat with "Paragraph area". And we are afraid of worsening the situation. The probably more correct term "Left paragraph white-space" is hard to translate. Tooltips and a descriptive help page might be the better solution.
Created attachment 180425 [details] screenshots of "To Paragraph" and "To Character" horizontal controls The attachment provides screenshots of the contexts with "Left Paragraph Border" and "Right Paragraph Border" appears.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #10) > We discussed the idea in the design meeting. > > The revised "Left of paragraph text area" conflicts somewhat with "Paragraph > area". And we are afraid of worsening the situation. The probably more > correct term "Left paragraph white-space" is hard to translate. attachment 180425 [details] shows the current controls (including recent changes). What situation is worsened? Can agree that the controls have been confusing/difficult to understand... But...please consider the growing symmetry in the Horizontal (and Vertical) control, which is broken by keeping "border"... Entire page Page text area Left of page text area Right of page text area Paragraph area Paragraph text area Proposed Left paragraph border (Left of paragraph text area) Right paragraph border (Right of paragraph text area) (there is also Above/Below page text area in the Vertical). Basic point: in the context of Horizontal positioning with "to paragraph" and "to character" anchors, the labeling "signals" that one only needs to learn: Page Paragraph area Page text area Paragraph text area (and then the "left of" and "right of" should be easier to grasp in context -- as argued in comment 9) In short: (now) accurate (and internally consistent) labels should improve the situation. Hoping for a reconsideration -- and expanding the audience for discussion...
Addendum: Paragraph Area is now "Entire Paragraph Area" (bug 149252), which now aligns better with "Entire page"
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #12) > What situation is worsened? It's not perfectly clear what "Left paragraph border" means- you filed the ticket therefore. Using "Left of paragraph text area" makes me wonder how this is different from just "Paragraph text area". Using "Left paragraph white-space" is hard to translate and the point of all these discussion is that we put a lot of thinking into the terminology expecting users to understand it from a single word change. In the end feel free to change the label. No strong opinion and no better idea.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #14) > Using "Left of paragraph text area" makes me wonder how > this is different from just "Paragraph text area". A good thing imo. > we put a lot of thinking into the terminology expecting users to > understand it from a single word change. Comment 9 argued against the idea that individual labels will be sufficient for understanding positioning options and for the idea that understanding will come contextually (as elaborated in comment 12) from comparing similar options, which helps to build up a more general model of the positioning options. That you "wonder" about the relation between "left of para text area" and "para text area" is already a step in the right direction. > In the end feel free to change the label. No strong opinion and no better > idea. In any case, "border" is misleading and unhelpful. Also open to better ideas. Meanwhile, here is the patch, but will wait a little for possible further comment. https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/135161
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #14) > In the end feel free to change the label. No strong opinion and no better > idea. => setting NEW (In reply to comment #15) > Here is the patch, but will wait a little for possible further comment. > > https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/135161 and no further comment, so will go forward.
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/9b211ff5e8db8131c0f9a250ba9ba85d28b29a87 tdf#149242 more precise labels for left and right of paragraph text area It will be available in 7.4.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Note: In relation to 'Left of Paragraph Text Area', if there is no Before Text Indent or no Paragraph left padding in the anchoring paragraph, then this control option will APPEAR like positioning is being made to Left Paragraph Border. (same story for 'Right of Paragraph Text Area' but with non-zero After Text Indent or Paragraph right padding). (maybe that explains the origin of the label, but could not find anything relevant in BZ) Closing as FIXED.