But we can already directly format the "Application color" 'Document background' and 'Font color' in user profile picking something other than "Automatic" that follows the os/DE Light/Dark theme -- and saving to a user "Color scheme" in profile for reuse.

Printing and Export is not otherwise affected by the visible UI document background.

Why would we need to automate this further? And flat NO to it as default. Especially given the minimal theme support from System Color values vs. needs for the much broader Application Color values.

If defaults don't work, users should Personalize their own Application Color scheme and save it for reuse.

The LibreOffice Dark theme provides an example, but users can build their own.

I agree with Eyal.

Having an easy-to-access "page color" toggle would help, because all 4 options could be taken:

- Light UI + White Page
- Light UI + Dark Page
- Dark UI + White Page
--- (This is what I prefer most of the time.)
- Dark UI + Dark Page

This is especially helpful when dealing with colors + contrast issues.

- - -

*Insert famous psychology experiment of same color looking completely different on white or black backgrounds.*

See famous blue/black or white/gold dress!

- https://www.techdirt.com/2015/02/27/have-you-been-debating-what-color-some-random-dress-is-all-day-thank-fair-use/

- - -

Most documents are printed on white paper, so need color accuracy, but in order to not be blinded at night, I might want a darker shade page temporarily.

Currently, going through:

- Tools > Options
- LibreOffice > Application Colors

then choosing:

- Application Background
- Change color to Automatic<->White

(Or toggling Scheme between LibreOffice<->LibreOffice Dark + tweaks)

is a little clunky.

I think this was discussed in bug 152184 and considered a "won't fix", at least for the automatic change as a default.

But maybe there's a good argument for better discoverability of the combination of following OS dark mode + LO application colors' dark theme.

I disagree with #152184 being wontfix. Automatically following OS system theme is standard behavior users have come to expect.

This bug here seems to be yet another duplicate of what was requested in https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152184 proving that users expect document background to follow theming (as other apps do).

@Eyal: If you agree, could you set to duplicate?

Using system defaults for the UI is mandatory, and the ability to override the default very much desirable (bug 153229). But I disagree with the *need* to match the two sets as we primarily do WYSIWYG editing - black ink on white paper. The option to change it back and forth makes sense in some scenarios and we made it possible. So the WF verdict on bug 152184 is still true, IMO.

I envision a LibreOffice theme that allows to change both system and application colors at once, if both are defined otherwise it would use the automatic colors. And I'm not against a dedicated dialog to pick the color combination similar to the UI chooser.

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 152184 ***

I do not consider the color of _pages_ of content as a part of an application's UI theme. It's a different kind of setting. And I doubt - though I may be wrong - that page colors, as opposed to UI element colors, are part of the "system defaults".

PS - I don't really have a dog in this fight personally since I don't use Dark Mode on my PC.

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1)
> But we can already directly format the "Application color" 'Document
> background' and 'Font color' in user profile picking something other than
> "Automatic" that follows the os/DE Light/Dark theme -- and saving to a user
> "Color scheme" in profile for reuse.
> 
> Printing and Export is not otherwise affected by the visible UI document
> background.
> 
> Why would we need to automate this further? And flat NO to it as default.
> Especially given the minimal theme support from System Color values vs.
> needs for the much broader Application Color values.
> 
> If defaults don't work, users should Personalize their own Application Color
> scheme and save it for reuse.
> 
> The LibreOffice Dark theme provides an example, but users can build their
> own.

Something like this is by far the easiest way to handle this request. Microsoft provided a good UI/UX option here. This should exist in both the dark and light mode. Please do not hide something like this behind complex menu items as it is an important aspect of using a dark mode particularly at night when a white canvas is very straining on your eyes.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> Using system defaults for the UI is mandatory, and the ability to override
> the default very much desirable (bug 153229). But I disagree with the *need*
> to match the two sets as we primarily do WYSIWYG editing - black ink on
> white paper. The option to change it back and forth makes sense in some
> scenarios and we made it possible. So the WF verdict on bug 152184 is still
> true, IMO.
> 
> I envision a LibreOffice theme that allows to change both system and
> application colors at once, if both are defined otherwise it would use the
> automatic colors. And I'm not against a dedicated dialog to pick the color
> combination similar to the UI chooser.
> 
> *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 152184 ***

I agree Heiko that would be very pragmatic as every user has their own preference, but a real dialog that shows up and not just a tip of the day. 

Perhaps after this amount of time a brief first start "wizard" would be helpful for users where a couple of simple questions are asked to set preferences such as light/dark mode, UI chooser etc?

"And I doubt - though I may be wrong - that page colors, as opposed to UI element colors, are part of the "system defaults"."

Apple office apps (Pages, Numbers, ...) follow system default for canvas color. And why not? If users opt for dark mode there is no reason to present a glaring white page screaming at them at 3am in the morning.

> Perhaps after this amount of time a brief first start "wizard" would be helpful for users where a couple of simple questions are asked to set preferences such as light/dark mode, UI chooser etc?

Yeah, something easier-to-reach, even something like:

- View > User Interface

then have toggles:

- Light/Dark Mode
- Light/Dark page

- - -

Right now, it's spread across 3 different settings you have to tweak/adjust:

1. Icon Theme
2. LibreOffice Themes
3. Color Scheme
--- You have to choose "LibreOffice" or "LibreOffice Dark"
--- ... then adjust your "Document Background" + other colors.

... along with your:

4. OS's Light/Dark setting.

- - -

Perhaps most of this can be incorporated into:

- 1 menu with buttons/toggles/dropdowns.

You then:

- Choose your UI.
- See the thumbnail image update.

It looks how you want? Great!

Doesn't look how you want?

- Choose mix of settings until you are satisfied with thumbnail.
- Press OK.

- - -

I recently explained the 3 LO settings here:

- https://www.reddit.com/r/libreoffice/comments/10sns6o/installed_75_is_it_supposed_to_look_like_this/j72wle0/

(That's just the latest answer I gave... but the Dark Mode posts/complaints/confusion has been flooding in for ~6 months now.)

I think having a simple menu/option, like:

- View > User Interface

would save a ton of support time, plus be relatively intuitive.

(In reply to steve from comment #9)
> Apple office apps (Pages, Numbers, ...) follow system default for canvas
> color.

Interesting...

1. But, is such a default defined? Or is it just a custom for these apps?

2. Does such a definition exist on Windows, or with Linux GUI toolkits (GTK, QT)?

What I could agree upon is to have the system and application color choice in the UI chooser dialog. But I'm against any automatic switch similar to the icons that need to be white on dark to be readable. The document canvas does not _need_ to switch, however.

I agree with Heiko. IMO, LibO is starting to need a dialog that consolidates some of these UI options in one place. Right now for an user to change the look of LibO to its preference it's necessay to navigate so many different dialogs that it becomes complicated.

My 2 cents:
I don't want to manually change the background color of the document on every sunset. This is what automatic change of the theme (light → dark) should do.
At the moment I have to use some other app to write documents in the evening, because I don't have time to go to settings and manually change the background color of the document every evening. I just want to write.

I think it should be possible to set it to automatically change the background color of the document as well. And there should be a choice for those, who like the white background in the dark theme. Although I don't know why should that person use dark theme in the first place. But that's just my opinion :)

And btw thanks for your work. We all appreciate it!

*** Bug 152184 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Before such automatic switch could be introduced, the whole application color (AC) concept needs to become updated. Point is that the "LibreOffice Dark" AC is just one random addition to the inbuilt automatic colors. You can remove the set and create something completely different with the same name.

One solution is a second automatic value, aka hard-coded color for dark. And a switch to change from light to dark. Easy to realize, however the current AC concept has this feature to become enhanced (as it is done with the "LibreOffice Dark" set). And in this case we do not have two colors for one option.

We could remove the capability for change AC.

We discussed this topic in the design meeting.

The convincing argument to not resolve WF likewise bug 152184 is using the night shift with the expectation that app colors (AC) follow.
The AC are a user-defined list filled from hard-coded values (some like hyperlinks taken from the OS). Users can add schemes, modify colors, and delete any. We cannot trust in the existence of any scheme and the proposal was to remove AC in favor of hard-coded light and dark colors. (Nothing to say against a customization in terms of personalization aka LibreOffice theme later.)

However, there are users who want to change the AC; the idea was to use the shipped AC schemes despite the mentioned issues and just inform the user if something is missing.

We could also separate the light/dark AC schemes, add an option to follow the system color, and provide an option to use the user-defined AC. Wouldn't be a simplification but an acceptable compromise.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17)

While I filed the bug, I don't actually have a preference like I mentioned before: I don't use dark mode, nor app colors, at all. So - whatever you do is fine by me, although perhaps other CC list members have their own preferences.

Also, it may be useful to get in contact with desktop environment maintainers, see what they would have liked.

*moved from bug#152184 comment 15*

FYI, just for info, maybe it might help to orientate and maybe follow the same way, because it's not bad and has proved its worth:


Microsoft Support document: Dark Mode in Word – Word for Microsoft 365, Word for Microsoft 365 for Mac, Word 2021
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/dark-mode-in-word-e17b79a3-762f-4280-a81c-a15a859a693a#ID0EDD=MacOS

Incl. what and how to change the settings to change/adjust the defaults. Sidenote (see screenshots and text in the document): for example, among other things: the default page background in dark mode is: a _dark_ page background, not a white one per default.

<blockquote>
Dark Mode in Word offers a dark color scheme for both the menu controls and the document background. Dark Mode can help to reduce eye strain and also provides a more modern feel to Word. The dark page background does not convey how your document will print, or the default view your collaborators will see when they open it.

…

Turn on Dark Mode

To turn on Dark Mode in the Word, you need to enable Dark Mode for Mac OS.

1. Go to Settings > General

2. In the Appearance options, select Dark

[Screenshot]

Alternatively, you can select Auto, which will switch between Light and Dark modes based on your specified Night Shift schedule in MacOS.

[Screenshot]

3. To turn off Dark Mode, go to Word > Preferences > General > Personalize and select Turn off Dark Mode 

[Screenshot]
inclusive this section:

Personalize
● Turn off Dark Mode
○ Dark mode has a dark page color
○ Dark mode has a white page color

…

Set the page background color

Once Dark Mode has been turned on, you can toggle between the dark and light page background colors.

   1. In the ribbon, go to the View tab.

   2. Select Switch Modes to change the page background color. Word will remember the state of this toggle for future Dark Mode sessions.

[Screenshot]


Disable the dark page background

You can disable the dark page background in Dark Mode and keep the page light.

    Go to Word > Preferences > General > Personalize.

    Select Dark Mode has a white page color.

[Screenshot]

Check the appearance

Regardless of your Dark Mode settings, your document will print with the light mode page color. Also, your Dark Mode settings do not impact your collaborators, and Word will respect individual view preferences. To preview your document for printing and sharing, use the Switch Modes button to change the page background to light.  

…

</blockquote>

"the default page background in dark mode is: a _dark_ page background"

Of course :)

Thanks for pointing at that documentation. While it doesn't indicate any conclusions, it certainly is valuable input and food for thought. I never understood the idea behind offering dark mode and then presenting a screaming white page at 3 am in the morning to make users fall of their chairs, but that's just me.

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 152184 ***

This bug should not be resolved as bug 152184 is about a generic dark mode through a configuration selection for Dark, Light and Follow System.

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152184

This bug is about the default canvas colour and providing a way to easily select dark or light instances.

I have set the status to "REOPENED" if I am incorrect in this status selection then please feel free to set to "Resolved" once again.

(In reply to John Mills from comment #22)
Read the source. https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/149059

Work will roll with a nightly in a day or so, test then or roll your own.

Heiko, with assistance, resolved the issue here as he indicated in comment 17, though he probably should have notated the commit with both BZ issues and left this issue open.

The AC System will follow system theming, including 'night mode', wile it provides the requested ability to Set both UI and AC from one location--Tools -> Options -> View.

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #23)

> The AC System will follow system theming, including 'night mode', wile it
> provides the requested ability to Set both UI and AC from one
> location--Tools -> Options -> View.

Whereby, as of bug#152184Comment #17:

(Heiko Tietze in comment #17)
> This patch removes the "Libreoffice Dark" scheme and introduces a switch
> that changes the Automatic colors from light to dark (user-defined colors
> are kept on switching).
> It also lists a "System Theme" entry which is assigned to light for now.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Work on bug 152184 and commit
https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/5675937f7564fa5614f7be5aec0d7f20ba91d02c%5E%21
resolves this.

Control is on Tools -> Options ->  Application Colors labeled 'Automatic' and applies a 'System Theme', 'Light', or 'Dark' AC theme that with the 'Dark' theme include non-WYSIWYG with a suitable Dark bg and light fg.

(In reply to Sierk Bornemann from comment #24)

> (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #23)
> > It also lists a "System Theme" entry which is assigned to light for now.
>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, with System Theme for the AC, the "Automatic" will be status quo of  os/DE passed color theme--probably meaning WYSIWYG fg on white bg. 

Not clear cross platform the os/DE pass sufficient theme details to fully populate.

So, for those desiring a dark bg with light fg, select the Automatic: 'Dark' color theme.

Version: 7.6.0.0.alpha0+ (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 1b463f697405e64a03378fb38a32172c4d3c25e6
CPU threads: 8; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 19045; UI render: Skia/Vulkan; VCL: win
Locale: en-US (en_US); UI: en-US
Calc: threaded