We have various methods to make paragraphs appear as a list: a) via Stylist in the sidebar, and picking one of the Bullet styles b1) per menu Styles > Bullet • List Style b2) per context menu List > Bullet • List Style c) attaching a list style to the paragraph d) per toolbar clicking the icon e1) per toolbar expanding the icon and picking one of the items from the "bullet gallery" e2) per dialog Bullet and Numbering The first batch of options a), b), and c) apply a "named list style" to the paragraph, which will be consistent across the document. Changing the style modifies all lists (and ordered lists continue the numbering). It will follow the predefined bullet-only design on all level and does not add any a small indentation. The toolbar option d) adds a list on-the-fly with a larger indentation, and varying glyph depending on the level. Variant e) does it similarly but the list will show only bullets in case of the first item (see bug 166229 for this). Changes to lists done via d) or e) are applied only to the one list. This is hard to understand for users. To focus on the inconsistency between a-c) and d-e) in this ticket, we may align the styles and use the same properties. Historically the default was to use different glyphs and some indentation. Alternatively we may stick to one glyph and no indentation for the first level given that the bullet itself is a sufficient indicator of the list. And the level are clearly recognizable with the indentation. To make the difference between named lists and unnamed more clear I suggest to rename the toolbar list into "Dynamic list style", for example.
Heiko, I totally agree, that this situation should be improved and I confirm the current behaviour (not sure, if this is sufficient to change status to NEW) Some thoughts to your suggestions: > To focus on the inconsistency between > a-c) and d-e) in this ticket, I agree > we may align the styles and use the same properties Don't understand this, because d-e) doesn't use a list style (this should be indicated in styles sidebar) So answer to the following question ist not clear to me: - Should bullets and numbering dialog customize styles? - Should use of icon in (expanded) toolbar apply a list style? I'm not sure about advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps it would be helpful, if there is an additional button in expanded toolbar named "list styles" and that opens list styles in sidebar. > To make the difference between named lists and unnamed more clear I suggest > to rename the toolbar list into "Dynamic list style", for example. I'm sure this would raise further questions: What is a dynamic list style? Why we don't have dynamic PS or CS?
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #0) > This is hard to understand for users. > To focus on the inconsistency between > a-c) and d-e) in this ticket, we may align the styles and use the same > properties. Are you sure that makes things less-confusing, rather than more-confusing, for users? That is, if the named list styles is noticeably _different_ than the DF/automatic "style", then users know they are not the same thing, and changes to the named style won't affect the lists with the DF. > Historically the default was to use different glyphs and some > indentation. "different glyphs" - I take it you mean different between levels of indentation, right? (If not, please explain.) > Alternatively we may stick to one glyph and no indentation for > the first level given that the bullet itself is a sufficient indicator of > the list. And the level are clearly recognizable with the indentation. I believe that the default, or most-easy-accessible, list style should have the indentation even on level one - not because that's what's most likely to be useful, document-styling-wise, but because it educates the newbie user about the existence of this possible extra indentation. Better that the user dislike it and learn how to remove it, than for the user to develop the notion that only the second level onward has indentation. For the same reason I would have liked for the default toolbar-button-press behavior to be an automatic list style with a different bullet char per level - again to make it clear to the newbie user that they can and should control that. However, the UI currently suggests the list is single-level, and I'm not sure you/us want to change that. > To make the difference between named lists and unnamed more clear I suggest > to rename the toolbar list into "Dynamic list style", for example. What do you mean by "renaming the toolbar list"
(continued), and, if you mean the automatic list style created by pressing the toolbar list button - where does that have a visible name, for us to rename?
(In reply to Dieter from comment #1) > > we may align the styles and use the same properties > Don't understand this, because d-e) doesn't use a list style (this should be > indicated in styles sidebar) Both are list styles, the "named" LS continue a list and 1,2,3 <text> continues as 4,5,6 when applied again. Changing the style to A,B,C or red font color, to have something that is more relevant to bullets, is applied to all of those lists. > - Should bullets and numbering dialog customize styles? The toolbar/keyboard LS is DF for good reasons. We may generate entries in the "named" LS list namely the Stylist. Not sure this would be an accepted behavior, though. > - Should use of icon in (expanded) toolbar apply a list style? Of course, we need both workflows. The alternative would be to force users into creating new "named" LS - and loosing a lot convenience. > > To make the difference between named lists and unnamed more clear I suggest > > to rename the toolbar list into "Dynamic list style", for example. > I'm sure this would raise further questions: What is a dynamic list style? > Why we don't have dynamic PS or CS? Dynamic PS/CS is DF. Many users don't understand this either. (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #2) > > To make the difference between named lists and unnamed more clear I suggest > > to rename the toolbar list into "Dynamic list style", for example. > > What do you mean by "renaming the toolbar list" The command .uno:DefaultNumbering has the label "Ordered List" and the tooltip "Toggle Ordered List (F12)" and I suggest to add something to make the difference to "named" LS more clear (rather than renaming the Stylist way to something like "Named list styles").
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > > What do you mean by "renaming the toolbar list" > The command .uno:DefaultNumbering has the label "Ordered List" and the > tooltip "Toggle Ordered List (F12)" and I suggest to add something to make > the difference to "named" LS more clear (rather than renaming the Stylist > way to something like "Named list styles"). Oh, sure, no objections to that; but I doubt it would be very impactful, considering only few users read the these tooltips, especially after they've already figured out it's a button which introduces some kind of list.