Description in German: Für 2 der 3 Formatierungszeichen in Writer (Einfügen > Formatierungszeichen) habe ich diverse unterschiedliche Begriffe in der Bedienoberfläche und in den Hilfetexten gefunden, was aufgrund der "Menge der unterschiedlichen Zeichen" ziemlich verwirrend war: [1] "Geschützter Bindestrich" = "geschützter Trennstrich" = "geschützter Trenner" (Strg+Umschalt+-) [2] " Benutzerdefinierter Trenner" = "Bedingtes Trennzeichen" = "Optionaler Trennstrich" = " Weicher Trenner" (Strg+-) [3] Für das "Geschützte Leerzeichen" habe ich (erstaunlicherweise) keine weiteren Begriff gefunden. (Strg+Umschalt+Leertaste) Erwartung: Verwendung gleicher Begriffe. Wo gefunden? [1] Einfügen > Formatierungszeichen [2] Extras > Optionen > LibreOffice Writer > Formatierungshilfen [3] Hilfetext zu [2] [4] Hilfe, "Einfügen von geschützten Leerzeichen, Bindestrichen und bedingten Trennzeichen" [5] Hilfe, "Formatierungszeichen" [6] Hilfe, "Einfügen von geschützten Leerzeichen" [7] Hilfe, "Tastaturbefehle für Textdokumente" [8] Hilfe, "Silbentrennung" Weitere ? Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.9.2.26) Gecko/20120128 Firefox/3.6.26
I am not sure this is a German l10n inconsistency. I think at least some of these are also inconsistent terminology in the English version, e.g. Insert->Formatting Mark->Optional Hyphen vs. Options->LibreOffice Writer->Formatting Ais-> Display of *Custom* Hyphens vs. "User defined delimiters" in Online Help I think semantic differences have to be checked, but this is a good catch. (in German) Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob diese Uneinheitlichkeit nur auf die deutsche Version beschränkt ist. Ich denke, zumindest einige dieser inkonsistenten Bezeichnungen finden sich auch in der Englischen Version (von der die deutsche übersetzt wird, daher kommen die Uneinheitlichkeiten vermutlich zustande), z.B. Insert->Formatting Mark->Optional Hyphen vs. Options->LibreOffice Writer->Formatting Ais-> Display of *Custom* Hyphens vs. "User defined delimiters" in Online Help Ich denke man sollte überprüfen ob es da einen Bedeutungsunterschied gibt, ansonsten ist das eine gute Entdeckung, die man auf jeden Fall korrigieren sollte.
@ Rainer Please, see at this bug. German and English terms inconsistency.
I added this one to my todo line
Might have roots in English Help Ctrl+Shift+minus sign (-) Non-breaking dash (is not used for hyphenation) <http://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Shortcut_Keys_for_Writer> but Non-breaking hyphen <http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Formatting_Mark> I think first we should do unification in English UI and then check again whether German inconsistencies remain @Jochen: What proceeding do you recommend?
(In reply to comment #4) > I think first we should do unification in English UI and then check again > whether German inconsistencies remain IMHO the following is purposeful: 1) Clarify what are the correct terms in English 2) Clarify if terms are in english UI and help entered correctly 3) Clarify what are the correct terms in German 4) Localisation in German
The following terms for the formatting marks are used in Wikipedia and LO: [1] English Wikipedia: Non-breaking space German Wikipedia: Geschütztes Leerzeichen Unicode: U+00A0 In English also known as: No-break space, non-breakable space, NBSP, hard space, fixed space In German also known as: Dauerleerzeichen Terms used in English UI and LO Help: non-breaking space, protected space Terms used in German UI and LO Help: Only "geschütztes Leerzeichen" Proposal for LO, English: None-breaking space Proposal for LO, German: Geschütztes Leerzeichen [2] English Wikipedia: Non-breaking hyphen German Wikipedia: Geschützter Bindestrich Unicode: U+2011 Terms used in Englich UI and LO Help: non-breaking hyphen, non-breaking dash, protected hyphen, non-breaking (protected) hyphen Terms used in German UI and LO Help: only "Geschützter Bindestrich" Proposal for LO, English: Non-breaking hyphen Proposal for LO, German: geschützter Bindestrich [3] English Wikipedia: Soft hyphen German Wikipedia: Weiches Trennzeichen Unicode: U+00AD In German also known as: Bedingter Trennstrich Terms used in English UI and Help: optional hyphen, custom hyphen, definite separator, conditional separator, user-defined delimiter Terms used in German UI and Help: bedingter Trennstrich, benutzerdefinierter Trennstrich Proposal for LO, English: Soft hyphen Proposal for LO, German: Weiches Trennzeichen In the UI I found these positions where the terms for formatting marks are used: (a) E: Insert > Formatting Mark G: Einfügen > Formatierungszeichen (b) E: Tools > Options... > LibreOffice Writer > Formatting aids G: Extras > Optionen... > LibreOffice Writer > Formatierungshilfen In the Help I found these help pages where the terms are used: (c) E + G: Help page to (b) (d) E: Inserting Protected Spaces, Hyphens and Conditional Separators G: Einfügen von geschützten Leerzeichen, geschützten Bindestrichen und bedingten Trennstrichen. (e) E: Formatting Mark G: Formatierungszeichen (f) E: Shortcut Keys for LibreOffice Writer G: Tastaturbefehle für Textdokumente (g) E: Hyphenation G: Silbentrennung If you can not find these pages at once, use the find feature of Help. I'm not sure if I found all occurences (UI and Help) where terms for formatting marks are used. If you find more please add a comment here.
Hello Harald, *, as it is not only a problem in the Germanophone UI and OLH, but also in the English one, I changed the summary ... ;) I think, Jochen's comment 5 (and there the points 1 and 2) are the first things, which should be done. Tested with LO Version: 4.1.0.1 Build ID: 1b3956717a60d6ac35b133d7b0a0f5eb55e9155 and installed Germanophone help- as well as langpack under Debian Testing AMD64. Sorry for the inconvenience Thomas.
On pc Debian x86-64 with master sources updated today, I still got different options: Insert->Formatting Mark->Optional Hyphen vs. Options->LibreOffice Writer->Formatting Ais-> Display of *Custom* Hyphens But online help matches the second one, see https://help.libreoffice.org/swriter/modules/swriter/ui/optformataidspage/OptFormatAidsPage?Language=en-US&System=UNIX&Version=4.4#Custom_hyphens ux-advise: should we change first one so all the 3 would match?
Please change both UI and help to use the most common terms: “non-breaking space”, “non-breaking hyphen” and “soft hyphen”. I would recommend elaborating on the meaning of these somewhere in Help (and maybe including synonyms), so that all doubts are cleared.
Julien Nabet committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=46b7a08767e17ff1ef086393c4e111a8ffa19d55 Related: fdo#45588 Use of different items for Formatting Marks The patch should be included in the daily builds available at http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
These 3 elements must be changed: 1) To change Option Hyphen from Insert/Formatting Mark http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/UI/GenericCommands.xcu#5548 2) To change Custom Hyphens Options->LibreOffice Writer->Formatting Aids http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/uiconfig/swriter/ui/optformataidspage.ui#59 3) Help http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/help/source/text/shared/optionen/01040600.xhp 1) and 2) have been done on master sources with this patch: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=46b7a08767e17ff1ef086393c4e111a8ffa19d55 but not sure about what to put for 3. Jan/Andras: any idea what to put precisely? If all this ok, may we backport this on 4.3 or is too late (for example because of "Hard English string & UI freeze" already done)?
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Checked again. Below you find the postions where I found terms for formattings marks that are still used incorrectly or are unclear (version 5.0.1.2): (a) Local help English, page Hyphenation: The insertion of a soft hyphen is described as direct entering of a hyphen. Furthermore the terms "non-breaking (protected) hyphen" and "Custom hyphens" are used. Attention: There are 2 help pages with the header Hyphenation. (b) Local help English, other page hyphenation: Inserting of a soft hyphen is described as manual hyphenation of single words. (c) Local help German, page 'Silbentrennung': The insertion of a soft hyphen (weiches Trennzeichen) is described as direct entering of a hyphen (Trennstrich). Attention: There are 2 help pages with the header 'Silbentrennung'. (d) Local help German, other page 'Silbentrennung': Inserting of a soft hyphen (weiches Trennzeichen) is described as manual hyphenation of single words. (e) Online help English, page "Inserting Protected Spaces, Hyphens and Conditional Separators". Wrong are the terms "Non-Breaking dash" and "Definite Separator": https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Inserting_Protected_Spaces,_Hyphens_and_Conditional_Separators (f) Online help German, page "Einfügen von geschützten Leerzeichen, geschützten Bindestrichen und bedingten Trennstrichen". Wrong is the term "Bedingte Trennstriche": https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Inserting_Protected_Spaces,_Hyphens_and_Conditional_Separators/de (g) Online help English, page "Formatting Mark". The term "No-width no break" is not clear. Is this the "Zero Width No-Break Space" (U+FEFF) or the "Word Joiner" (U+2060) or something else? I think the official unicode term should be used. (h) Online help German, page "Formatierungszeichen". Wrong is the term "Bedingter Trennstrich": https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Formatting_Mark/de And another term from this page is different to the term of the menu: "Kein Umbruch ohne Breite" vs. "Verbindungselement ohne Breite". I think there is no official German term. What about inventing a new term: "Wort-Verbinder"? Wort-Zusammenhalter? (i) Online help German, page "Tastaturbefehle für LibreOffice Writer": Wrong is the term "Bedingter Trennstrich": https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Shortcut_Keys_for_Writer/de (j) Online helg German, page "Tastenkombinationen für LibreOffice Impress": Wrong is the term "Tastenkombinationen für LibreOffice Impress": https://help.libreoffice.org/Impress/Shortcut_Keys_for_Impress/de
The last one "(j)" was wrong. Correct is: (j) Online helg German, page "Tastenkombinationen für LibreOffice Impress": Wrong is the term "Angepasste Bindestriche": https://help.libreoffice.org/Impress/Shortcut_Keys_for_Impress/de And here some more positions for incorrect terms: (k) Online help English, page "Preventing Hyphenation of Specific Words". The term "No-width no break" is not clear. Is this the "Zero Width No-Break Space" (U+FEFF) or the "Word Joiner" (U+2060) or something else? I think the official unicode term should be used. https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Preventing_Hyphenation_of_Specific_Words (l) Online help German, page "Verhindern der Silbentrennung für bestimmte Wörter". Term "Verbindungselement ohne Breite". See (h). https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Preventing_Hyphenation_of_Specific_Words/de (m) Online help English, page "Hyphenation": Inserting of a soft hyphen is described as manual hyphenation of single words. https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Hyphenation (n) Online help German, page 'Silbentrennung': Inserting of a soft hyphen (weiches Trennzeichen) is described as manual hyphenation of single words. https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Hyphenation/de (o) Onlne help English, page Hyphenation: The insertion of a soft hyphen is described as direct entering of a hyphen. Furthermore the terms "non-breaking (protected) hyphen" and "Custom hyphens" are used. https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Hyphenation_1 (p) Online help German, page 'Silbentrennung': The insertion of a soft hyphen (weiches Trennzeichen) is described as direct entering of a hyphen (Trennstrich). https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Hyphenation_1/de
** Please read this message in its entirety before responding ** To make sure we're focusing on the bugs that affect our users today, LibreOffice QA is asking bug reporters and confirmers to retest open, confirmed bugs which have not been touched for over a year. There have been thousands of bug fixes and commits since anyone checked on this bug report. During that time, it's possible that the bug has been fixed, or the details of the problem have changed. We'd really appreciate your help in getting confirmation that the bug is still present. If you have time, please do the following: Test to see if the bug is still present on a currently supported version of LibreOffice (5.1.5 or 5.2.1 https://www.libreoffice.org/download/ If the bug is present, please leave a comment that includes the version of LibreOffice and your operating system, and any changes you see in the bug behavior If the bug is NOT present, please set the bug's Status field to RESOLVED-WORKSFORME and leave a short comment that includes your version of LibreOffice and Operating System Please DO NOT Update the version field Reply via email (please reply directly on the bug tracker) Set the bug's Status field to RESOLVED - FIXED (this status has a particular meaning that is not appropriate in this case) If you want to do more to help you can test to see if your issue is a REGRESSION. To do so: 1. Download and install oldest version of LibreOffice (usually 3.3 unless your bug pertains to a feature added after 3.3) http://downloadarchive.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/ 2. Test your bug 3. Leave a comment with your results. 4a. If the bug was present with 3.3 - set version to "inherited from OOo"; 4b. If the bug was not present in 3.3 - add "regression" to keyword Feel free to come ask questions or to say hello in our QA chat: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=libreoffice-qa Thank you for helping us make LibreOffice even better for everyone! Warm Regards, QA Team MassPing-UntouchedBug-20160920
Checked with version 5.2.2. There are some positions, where the right term is still not used. According comment 13 and comment 14 these positions are effected: English: (a), (b), (e), (g), (m) and (o) German: (f) Furthermore: In the German pages "Formatierungszeichen" (https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Formatting_Mark/de) and "Verhindern der Silbentrennung für bestimmte Wörter" (https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Preventing_Hyphenation_of_Specific_Words/de) the different terms "Verbindungszeichen ohne Breite" and "Geschütztes Verbindungszeichen ohne Breite" are used for the same character. (see former cases (h) and (l))
So actally it's "only" an issue of the online help? If this is the case I would mke the title of the bug more precise like "[Online help Writer]: ..."
Does it make sense to change (unifying) the terms just in the German translations? I would try to do it forward to LibreOffice 5.3.4 and 5.4.
I don't know what disadvantages this might have, so I can't assess it.
(In reply to Sophia Schroeder from comment #18) > Does it make sense to change (unifying) the terms just in the German > translations? I would try to do it forward to LibreOffice 5.3.4 and 5.4. Meanwhile in German only help pages are affected. Hence there should be no problems to change the terms.
Now I'm working on it (was suddenly away for 3 weeks). Unfortunately I have no access to the Online Help Pages to change anything. Also the still wrong English terms I cannot change in any way for now. I hope I found everything else you mentioned in your comments. Would you please retest then with upcoming 5.3.4, making a new comment and hide the others as obsolete for better overview of the remaining issues? Would be very appreciated. :-D
Checked again with version 5.4.3. Problems mentioned in comment 16 still exist.
Thank you for retesting. :-) Will look at it and the other bug these days.
As mentioned in https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiches_Trennzeichen the term "Bedingter Trennstrich" is a valid German term. The only occurrence is a bookmark for it in Pootle and therefore also in our German help. There is nothing I can do in our wiki help and English origin strings (yet), sadly. Therefore I reassign the bug to default and mark it as new again. Sorry, that I cannot do more.
Some time ago I changed many strings for German translation. Can someone (preferably Harald) check the German translation again if all bugs are corrected or I forgot something?
I wrote a new bug report with regards to formatting marks (bug 119723). That bug report includes problems of more formatting marks. Furthermore there is a new help system and this report refers to the old help system. If 119723 is confirmed I will close this bug.
Nearly all problems mentioned in this report are fixed. The rest will be treated in bug 119723.
(In reply to Harald Koester from comment #27) > Nearly all problems mentioned in this report are fixed. The rest will be > treated in bug 119723. => Status VERIFIED FIXED