Created attachment 108370 [details] wps writer's online template gallery I recently opened up WPS Writer and saw they provided an assortment of templates from their online template gallery and i thought that it would be great to have something similar to this in the start center being pulled from libreoffice's template website < http://templates.libreoffice.org/ >.
This looks very interesting.
Created attachment 108373 [details] Template manager dialog button to launch browser and get more templates @Jay, *, We sort of do already. Start Center --> Templates --> Edit Templates which launches the Template Manager dialog. And on the Template Manager the "Get more templates for LibreOffice" button as highlighted in the clip. Launches a web browser session and allows user to search select and download a template into their own cache of templates. Rather than cluttering the Start Center -- I think having it delivered from a web browser interface is more efficient and cleaner. Placement and labeling on the Template Manager might be improved though to make it more obvious. Stuart
Created attachment 108377 [details] possible concept in start center Hi Stuart, Having a button in the templates dialog is not the same as being able to browse through the online templates with LibO. What i was thinking is that we can add a 4th folder listed within the template start center and dialog called 'Online Templates' and once you click on it, it queries the template website for screenshots and make it easy to download and add selected templates to 'My Templates'.
What Kingsoft/WPS does is essentially a duplication of any template website. I don’t see the point, given that we already have a link to that website in the Template Manager dialog. Any effort we (or a GSoC student) do, won’t *ever* reach an acceptable level of quality, and what will happen if the web side of it is unavailable, or changes protocols, or the user doesn’t have free Internet access? An unusable “feature” will be present, and very prominently. We should instead work in making our Templates website actually usable, and de-uglify it. IMNSHO.
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #4) > What Kingsoft/WPS does is essentially a duplication of any template website. Yes they are integrating a template website into their application. This isnt any different from integrating firefox persona themes into LibreOffice ( https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/4.4#Firefox_Themes ) rather than having users go to the website. > I don’t see the point, given that we already have a link to that website in > the Template Manager dialog. We have a link to the template website from the template manager, but nothing for the start center. So even if integrating the website into the start center isnt going to fly, we still need a button in the start center linking users to the template website. > Any effort we (or a GSoC student) do, won’t > *ever* reach an acceptable level of quality I believe that it can reach an acceptable level of quality, similar to how the firefox themes has reached a good level of quality now. > and what will happen if the web > side of it is unavailable, or changes protocols, or the user doesn’t have > free Internet access? What happens when a user doesnt have internet and doesnt have local help installed but clicks on the help button in the toolbar? It links to the wiki help by opening it up in a browser. What happens when a user clicks Help > Check for Updates... and has no internet or the TDF website is down. It will show an error message. Not having internet access or the website not being available isnt a reason to not implement this feature. Error checking can be included in the code to make sure to check if internet access is available as well as the template website is accessible before attempting to get the templates. If the user doenst have free internet access, he wont likely click the 'online templates' button, and even if he does, their would be only a minimal amount of bandwidth being used to query the website and get the results (titles, descriptions, ratings, thumbnails). The query result could be encoded to save bandwidth as well. > An unusable “feature” will be present, and very > prominently. Its only unusable when you dont have internet access and it being in the template manager isnt in my view a prominent place. > We should instead work in making our Templates website actually usable, and > de-uglify it. IMNSHO. Yes i believe work should go into improving the template website to make it nicer, but having a nice template website that users are aware of doesnt help, so we should make sure users who go into the template manager in the start center or dialog see a prominent indication that there are online templates that they can access.
(In reply to Jay Philips from comment #5) > > Any effort we (or a GSoC student) do, won’t > > *ever* reach an acceptable level of quality > > I believe that it can reach an acceptable level of quality, similar to how > the firefox themes has reached a good level of quality now. Sorry, but you’ve chosen the worst example. All those glitches and rendering bugs are glaring to me. > > and what will happen if the web > > side of it is unavailable, or changes protocols, or the user doesn’t have > > free Internet access? > > What happens when a user doesnt have internet and doesnt have local help > installed but clicks on the help button in the toolbar? It links to the wiki > help by opening it up in a browser. That’s actually a bug. Don’t be fooled into following the fallacy of counter-questioning with false equivalence. > Its only unusable when you dont have internet access and it being in the > template manager isnt in my view a prominent place. Weren’t you talking about the start center? In 4.4, what goes into the Template Manager is also visible in the Start Center, anyways. That *is* prominent, and even more if it doesn’t work. > Yes i believe work should go into improving the template website to make it > nicer, but having a nice template website that users are aware of doesnt > help, so we should make sure users who go into the template manager in the > start center or dialog see a prominent indication that there are online > templates that they can access. (Perhaps you meant to write “are not aware…” instead of “are aware…”?) Where’s the proof that the Templates website is hidden away and nobody is aware of it? Statistics are needed before making such claims. The OOo-inherited Start Center had a link to the Templates website. Now we have an even clearer “Templates” button, with big fonts and everything — it’s not like people won’t see it. That button leads to a window with an icon linking to the site. Not undiscoverable. Well, even though I can’t help thinking this is unnecessary bells and whistles, I like the concept you show in attachment 108377 [details]. There’s no need for more.
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #6) > (In reply to Jay Philips from comment #5) > > > Any effort we (or a GSoC student) do, won’t > > > *ever* reach an acceptable level of quality > > > > I believe that it can reach an acceptable level of quality, similar to how > > the firefox themes has reached a good level of quality now. > > Sorry, but you’ve chosen the worst example. All those glitches and rendering > bugs are glaring to me. I gave it as an example, but mean that i'm saying its a perfect implementation. Ultimately, we'll agree to disagree on having them integrated. > > > and what will happen if the web > > > side of it is unavailable, or changes protocols, or the user doesn’t have > > > free Internet access? > > > > What happens when a user doesnt have internet and doesnt have local help > > installed but clicks on the help button in the toolbar? It links to the wiki > > help by opening it up in a browser. > > That’s actually a bug. Don’t be fooled into following the fallacy of > counter-questioning with false equivalence. I dont think that is a bug, because libreoffice shouldnt have to check for an internet access before sending a user to a website, but if you think its a bug, please do file it. ;) > > Its only unusable when you dont have internet access and it being in the > > template manager isnt in my view a prominent place. > > Weren’t you talking about the start center? In 4.4, what goes into the > Template Manager is also visible in the Start Center, anyways. That *is* > prominent, and even more if it doesn’t work. I guess were are misunderstanding each other as i'm saying its not in a prominent place in libreoffice and you are saying its in a prominent place in the template manager. > > Yes i believe work should go into improving the template website to make it > > nicer, but having a nice template website that users are aware of doesnt > > help, so we should make sure users who go into the template manager in the > > start center or dialog see a prominent indication that there are online > > templates that they can access. > > (Perhaps you meant to write “are not aware…” instead of “are aware…”?) You are correct. :D > Where’s the proof that the Templates website is hidden away and nobody is > aware of it? Statistics are needed before making such claims. I am saying that in the start center of 4.4, when you click the templates button, the templates dialog doesnt appear, so there is no link to the templates website. > The OOo-inherited Start Center had a link to the Templates website. Now we > have an even clearer “Templates” button, with big fonts and everything — > it’s not like people won’t see it. That button leads to a window with an > icon linking to the site. Not undiscoverable. As stated above, users of 4.4 arent being lead to the window, so there is no icon linking to the site. > Well, even though I can’t help thinking this is unnecessary bells and > whistles, I like the concept you show in attachment 108377 [details]. > There’s no need for more. Yes when i created this screenshot, i thought that it would be used for both linking to the website or showing the online templates in the start center.
(In reply to A (Andy) from comment #1) > This looks very interesting. I agree. status NEW. nice mockup here at attachment 108377 [details]
Frankly the existing template and extension hosting is horrible. As are most of the out of date template content posted as projects to the site. In its current state, I'm not convinced it makes any sense to invest more design or development effort for Start Center than the existing simple web link in the Template Manager dialog. Admittedly, making it a core function of the Start Center would draw more attention to it. But the data infrastructure and design of the hosting would need to be improved before we could reliably parse it for viable content. I think before we get too wrapped up in this as an enhancement to Start Center implementation, there needs to be agreement on the direction and support of the role the project wants to fill in governance and hosting of templates. What exists is clearly inadequate in quality and quantity to make it a feature of the GUI. -=ref=- http://templates.libreoffice.org/template-center
Created attachment 110422 [details] Alternative concept for templates (and extensions) Just show the web site or rather the part with templates or extensions at the start center. Make extension and templates behave similar like Mozillas plugins and themes.
still a valid enhancement request. not yet implemented in 5.0.x and 5.1.x
So this is available in the GSoC wiki page and i've just finished creating a mockup for how it could look. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MHN-PctRP2O9gQop74612xObBeuuww83BhPU8t7cdGs/edit?usp=sharing
Looking at the current Start Center in master, we only have the Extensions button at the bottom left, but it opens the website in the browser. I see two options: - Ideally, we'd either have it integrate online templates right into the window, with preview (maybe with "Local" and "Online" tabs?), - or (probably more straight forward): use the "Tight Integration of Extensions" already implemented, to click on a button to open an extra dialog to search search and install extra templates. The second option is available when starting from a component, e.g. Writer > File > Templates > Manage Templates > Manage > Extensions, but it does not work from Start Center: File > Templates > Manage templates > Manage. The item is greyed out for bug 137922, as band-aid patch as previously it wouldn't do anything.
I too suggest to add an Online Templates section in the Start Center to make online templates visible, as some user don't even know there are more online.
(In reply to Stéphane Guillou (stragu) from comment #13) > Looking at the current Start Center in master, we only have the Extensions > button at the bottom left, but it opens the website in the browser. > > I see two options: > - Ideally, we'd either have it integrate online templates right into the > window, with preview (maybe with "Local" and "Online" tabs?), > - or (probably more straight forward): use the "Tight Integration of > Extensions" already implemented, to click on a button to open an extra > dialog to search search and install extra templates. > > The second option is available when starting from a component, e.g. Writer > > File > Templates > Manage Templates > Manage > Extensions, but it does not > work from Start Center: File > Templates > Manage templates > Manage. The > item is greyed out for bug 137922, as band-aid patch as previously it > wouldn't do anything. Umm, no. Effective 24.8 on the Community builds we've removed the SC Extensions button and replaced it with a Donate button. The only place from SC the online Extensions are reachable is from the Extensions manager dialog: Tools -> Extensions (which shows the Bundled extensions packaged with installer) but that dialog has the "Get more extensions online" URL to the "https://extensions.libreoffice.org" site. That said, I continue to believe we gain nothing by turning the SC into a Web browser to display the extensions.libreoffice.org content. The Extensions web site provides search and filtering that would be difficult to integrate into the SC backing panel--unlike the Thumbnail views of recents or templates there now. But I do think we could benefit by restoring a more prominent URL link in the GUI without requiring the Extensions manager dialog. Even an Extensions button under the Templates on the Tab bar.
I would also like it to be the case, that when a user opens the LO start center, then either immediately, or at one click away, they would see templates corresponding to common kinds of documents people write, for a psychological effect of "What new item would you be writing today? A formal letter? An expense report? A Curriculum Vitae? etc." - which is the vibe I get from the WPS template gallery. I should also say this desire is irrespective of whether those easily-available templates are local or online ("extension" templates); and I can definitely imagine a situation in which we have a more rich and robust set of templates bundled with LO, or alternatively, easily installed as extensions, so that there is no longer a need for online access for the commonly-used templates. In that case, I would also like for the user to be able to dis-integrate easily, or easily avoid integration. For this reason, I: * DISLIKE having to get to the template manager, a separate dialog from the start center, to obtain new templates * DISLIKE the mechanism described in comment 2 - of "press a small button" for anything related to online templates to happen. * DISLIKE the suggestion in comment 3, which would place all templates another click away than they are now. I also dislike the strong separation of local and online templates, so that you can't see the local ones if you're looking at the online ones. * an UNSURE of whether the template section of the start center should simply be an integration of the template manager. What I would like to see is for the template part of the start center to: 1. For any kind of viewing/filtering state of display of templates, to have a large button, perhaps even a bar, which would try to retrieve more templates of this kind from online sources. This could be somewhat similar to how search engines, or social media feeds, have "get more results" or "fill feed further back" UI element. 2. For there to be a search box integrated into the templates section of the start center, without launching an extra dialog, and possibly visible by default. 3. For it to be configurable whether searching for templates, from the start center, searches only the local templates or also online templates (and I'd say the default would be also searching online templates, but if the toggle is very visible, then maybe that's not super-important) ----- Replies to comments/aspects of the discussion: * Regarding the exchange between Adolpho and Yousuf: I generally agree with Yousuf (Jay). But - this should certainly be implemented so that when Internet access is down, or the online extension source server is down etc - that is handled gracefully and does not at all interfere with the experience of using local templates. * Regarding Stuart's comment #9: I also find that the current state of our template offerings is lacking (although over a decade has passed since his comment...). Also agree that the question of whether we should be responsible for hosting templates is a valid one. But I don't believe that has that much bearing on this issue. In fact, more exposure for online templates in the start center should get us more feedback on those templates, requests for other templates etc. * Regarding the linked-to GSoC document with mockups (comment #12): I believe we should make a more clear distinction, or to have a better story to tell ourselves, about the distinction between "template manager" and the access to templates from the start center. No difference? Tweaked positions and sizes only? Functional difference (i.e. no ability to add and remove things, move between categories etc.)?
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #16) Since 7.5 [1] Templates can be filtered via Filter list box: [All Documents|Text Documents|Spreadsheets|Presentations|Drawings] I would suggest that with default 'All Documents' mode we only show the locally installed Templates. That keeps the UI simple for the majority of user. And only when a Filter selection is made while in the SC Templates mode, then expose a button action to 'Go Online' with a "Get more templates of this type" tooltip--or something similar. And that would launch the users default web browser onto the Extensions (extensions.libreoffice.org) with filter applied. Much as we are now doing for the new 25.2 Appearance theme extensions. Still insist that the overhead of exposing the extensions website onto the backing window of the StartCenter would not be functional and would be a horror to implement and maintain cross platform. =-ref-= [1] work on bug 80934 to filter content the Start Center https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/139730
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #17) Since 7.5 [1] Templates can be filtered via Filter list box: [All Documents|Text Documents|Spreadsheets|Presentations|Drawings] Now we only need to be able to filter templates by, what, eight other criteria? :-) I made a list yesterday on bug 165331. > I would suggest that with default 'All Documents' mode we only show the > locally installed Templates. That keeps the UI simple for the majority of > user. > Do you mean a "get more" bar, which loads more templates into the same pane is too complex? > And only when a Filter selection is made while in the SC Templates mode, > then expose a button action to 'Go Online' with a "Get more templates of > this type" tooltip--or something similar. Note that those are two very different actions. "Go Online" implies opening a browser, or a dialog etc.; "get more means just showing more templates in the same pane - which originate in online template sources > And that would launch the users default web browser onto the Extensions > (extensions.libreoffice.org) with filter applied. Much as we are now doing > for the new 25.2 Appearance theme extensions. Oh no, that defeats the whole point of this bug: _integrating_ access to templates. > Still insist that the overhead of exposing the extensions website onto the > backing window of the StartCenter would not be functional and would be a > horror to implement and maintain cross platform. We won't expose the extension _website_; we'll just get template information not just by iterating a local directory, but also by iterating a remote one (or a remote meta-data file etc.)