Bug 96299 - New default insert values for cross references
Summary: New default insert values for cross references
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: Fields-Cross-Reference
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Reported: 2015-12-06 22:37 UTC by Joel Madero
Modified: 2017-09-07 15:09 UTC (History)
9 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
Demonstrates Issue (555.89 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2015-12-06 22:37 UTC, Joel Madero
Details

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Description Joel Madero 2015-12-06 22:37:14 UTC
Created attachment 121090 [details]
Demonstrates Issue

Bodhi Moksha
LibreOffice 5.1 (dev build)

Steps:
1. Open writer document;
2. Insert an image on page 2
3. Insert a caption (right click on image) with test as caption
4. Go back to page 1
5. Type the following "This is a test, refer to illustration "
6. Insert -> Cross-Reference -> Illustration -> select your Illustration 1 -> Insert

**OBSERVE: "Page" is default for "Insert reference to"

Observed: You'll see that logically what you want to do is reference Illustration 1, instead you see Illustration 2 (because it is referring to the page not the illustration).

In my mind the default should be Insert Reference To: NUMBER" as this will be far more common than referring to a page generally. 

Asking for UX input here - an easy hack so marking it as such for dev input.
Comment 1 Heiko Tietze 2015-12-06 23:18:49 UTC
Hard to say without user data what type of reference is used most frequently. Eve may use it for figures, tables etc. like '...see picture [1] at page [2]', whereas Benjamin wouldn't use this feature at all. Therefore I'd keep it as it as as long we don't have data to underpin the changes.
Comment 2 Joel Madero 2015-12-06 23:26:18 UTC
The only reason this came up was because a user came into the #libreoffice channel and for the life of him couldn't figure out what was going wrong as he saw a reference to "Illustration 6" when he had clearly selected "Illustration 1"

I've only used cross-references a handful of times but I can say hands down I've never referred to a page (anecdotal I know). 

The other option maybe is to redesign the dialog so it's more obvious as to what is being referred to. On the right (main part) you see "Illustration 1" and it's only when you look to the bottom left that you see that Page is being referred to. When the largest part of the dialog (where the eyes move to) says "Illustration 1", it seems like you would of course assume the reference will be to Illustration 1 and not Illustration 6.

Of course if UX as a whole says no, go ahead and close it - I just think that the current situation leaves a lot to be desired.
Comment 3 Heiko Tietze 2015-12-07 00:29:05 UTC
> The other option maybe is to redesign the dialog so it's more obvious as to
> what is being referred to...

Yes. Not only the cross-reference workflow has room for improvements but also the complete fields dialog is terrible and needs streamlining. It looks like a lot of work.
Comment 4 Francisco 2015-12-10 01:32:12 UTC
Hi there. As a researcher, I use heavily cross references for tables and figure captions (much in the "Eve's way" I'd say). As Heiko pointed, the  cross-reference workflow could be improved. But, I also think that simply changing the default option from page number into paragraph numbering.
Just a user's opinion :-)
Regards!
Comment 5 Robinson Tryon (qubit) 2015-12-10 07:20:05 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 6 Robinson Tryon (qubit) 2016-08-25 04:44:45 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 7 Dieter Praas 2017-05-31 12:15:37 UTC
Set to enhancement, because everything works how it should works. But an improvement is still possible.
Comment 8 Cor Nouws 2017-08-11 20:45:39 UTC
could be an easy hack .. 

@shinnok: is that something you check, or promote at the ESC too? Thanks - Cor
Comment 9 Shinnok 2017-08-25 13:50:18 UTC
Is this still of relevance and could be turned into an easyHack? If so need UX and DEV eval.
Comment 10 Heiko Tietze 2017-08-28 09:09:53 UTC
"One" user showed up and asked about changing the default. We agreed that the workflow has room for improvements but the messing up with the default is not a solution. So let's close this ticket as WF.
Comment 11 Cor Nouws 2017-08-28 20:29:49 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #10)
> "One" user showed up and asked about changing the default. We agreed that
> the workflow has room for improvements but the messing up with the default
> is not a solution. So let's close this ticket as WF.

Has this been discussed?
I think the requested change indeed makes sense..
Comment 12 Thomas Lendo 2017-08-31 06:17:09 UTC
I strongly support Joel's request. Bug 92688 (When inserting a cross-reference, remember last used "reference to") is helping when using the dialog often, but another than "Page" should be the default to help especially new users or users that are using that dialog rarely.

I suggest to change the default to "Reference" for
* Headings,
* Illustrations and
* Bookmarks.

For Numbered Paragraphs the default should be left to "Page".

For the other entries I don't know the best default.

That's also was users get when using cross references in MS Word 2013:
- Numbered element: Page
- Heading: Heading text (reference)
- Text mark: Text mark content (reference)
- Footnote: Foot note number
- End note: End note number
- Illustration: Whole caption (reference, that's identical to Category and Number + Caption Text)
- Formula: Whole caption (reference)
- Table: Whole caption (reference)
Comment 13 Thomas Lendo 2017-08-31 07:27:33 UTC
I've forgotten "Tables".
I suggest to change the default to "Reference" for Tables too.
Comment 14 Cor Nouws 2017-08-31 08:39:13 UTC
thanks Thomas.
So the summary could well be: "cross references defaults need improvement"?
Comment 15 Thomas Lendo 2017-08-31 10:52:56 UTC
Another one, "Drawing":
I suggest to change the default to "Reference" for drawing objects.

Changing the summary to "New default insert values for cross references". Is that ok?
Comment 16 Cor Nouws 2017-08-31 12:53:44 UTC
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #15)
> Changing the summary to "New default insert values for cross references". Is
> that ok?

fine for me - could be an interesting series of easy hacks?
Comment 17 Heiko Tietze 2017-09-07 15:09:04 UTC
We talked about this request in the design meeting. The idea was accepted but with concerns that it is easy to realize. 'Insert reference to' is always sorted with page on top, and that is what the user get as cross-reference. When we introduce a context depending default we need to implement the logic first.

Sorting the list is definitely not a good solution but to jump to a certain (and last chosen) item makes sense. Once the preselection has been implemented the design team will decide if following Microsoft from comment 12 makes sense.