Bug Hunting Session
Bug 127279 - Register-true with better labelling
Summary: Register-true with better labelling
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Writer (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All All
: medium normal
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL: https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/questi...
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: DTP
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2019-09-02 12:02 UTC by pedro.silva
Modified: 2019-09-25 13:09 UTC (History)
7 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
Page from the book Thinking with Type by Ellen Lupton, InDesign screenshot (100.22 KB, image/gif)
2019-09-03 13:10 UTC, pedro.silva
Details
Term used in Scribus (87.03 KB, image/png)
2019-09-03 13:12 UTC, pedro.silva
Details
Text of ODF 1.2 standard for 20.328 and 20.329 (27.31 KB, image/png)
2019-09-05 13:59 UTC, V Stuart Foote
Details
How page dialog looks know (LO 6.3) (188.58 KB, image/png)
2019-09-25 09:27 UTC, pedro.silva
Details
Proposal: using the well know line spacing term (210.49 KB, image/png)
2019-09-25 09:32 UTC, pedro.silva
Details
Proposal: Paragraph style dialog, follow page line spacing (146.22 KB, image/png)
2019-09-25 10:07 UTC, pedro.silva
Details

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Description pedro.silva 2019-09-02 12:02:56 UTC
Is it conceivable to change the name of Register-true to “Align to Baseline Grid” or “Baseline Grid” and the subsequent “Reference Style:” to “Reference Text Style:” or “From Text Style:” in order to improve overall understanding for the user.

This, I believe, would be more clear and even coherent with the DTP lingo that has been tough in College but also to be consistent with the same term that user might already know from Scribus, Adobe InDesign, etc. At the same time it would be also easier to understand for a non-power user since it conveys the concepts of text and grid.

Of course the term in "Paragraph style dialogue: Indents & Spacing" would also change. In this case I would purpose the replacement of “Register-true” group and include the “Activate” inside of “Line-Spacing” group but with different name: “Align to Baseline Grid” or "Align to Page Baseline Grid".
Comment 1 Heiko Tietze 2019-09-03 06:53:44 UTC
Do you have references for the term used on other tools, ie. "Scribus, Adobe InDesign, etc."?
Comment 2 pedro.silva 2019-09-03 12:46:44 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> Do you have references for the term used on other tools, ie. "Scribus, Adobe
> InDesign, etc."?

Yes, I can attach here if you wish. I can also try (at the best of my abilities) to list here common typography/graphic design manuals/books where the term used is always Baseline Text.
Comment 3 pedro.silva 2019-09-03 13:10:39 UTC
Created attachment 153839 [details]
Page from the book Thinking with Type by Ellen Lupton, InDesign screenshot
Comment 4 pedro.silva 2019-09-03 13:12:42 UTC
Created attachment 153840 [details]
Term used in Scribus
Comment 5 pedro.silva 2019-09-03 13:28:38 UTC
- Meggs' History of Graphic Design (mine is the 5th edition) also mentions baseline multiple times
- The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst (mine is the 4th edition) has also some mention of baseline (also leading and vertical motion)
Comment 6 QA Administrators 2019-09-03 16:13:26 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 7 V Stuart Foote 2019-09-03 16:52:47 UTC
Obviously we do not implement a vertical grid typesetting framework on which objects can be aligned.

Rather, we describe a "Reference" paragraph style--font and leading--that establishes a text line height. And effectively sets text "baselines" as vertically filled from top down and applied within margins of a page style. 

Multiple paragraphs on multiple pages will be aligned to that baseline when those paragraphs (selectively) are 'Register true' enabled. 

And beleive different page styles (each with a "Reference style" and corresponding line height/baselines) can be defined (pre-defined in template) for use in complex documents.

This is a different approach to that of InDesign or even Scribus.
Comment 8 pedro.silva 2019-09-04 07:33:37 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #7)
> Obviously we do not implement a vertical grid typesetting framework on which
> objects can be aligned.

Understood.

> Rather, we describe a "Reference" paragraph style--font and leading--that
> establishes a text line height. And effectively sets text "baselines" as
> vertically filled from top down and applied within margins of a page style. 
> 
> Multiple paragraphs on multiple pages will be aligned to that baseline when
> those paragraphs (selectively) are 'Register true' enabled. 
> 
> And beleive different page styles (each with a "Reference style" and
> corresponding line height/baselines) can be defined (pre-defined in
> template) for use in complex documents.
> 
> This is a different approach to that of InDesign or even Scribus.

Agreed, it is most def. a different approach and I see no problem with that.

In this bug what I tried to propose was a better labelling. As you see when describing the functionality you use the word Baseline (let us forget for a minute about the "Grid"). Also I never encounter any educational material on graphic design, typography or simply about print with that term but all of these do have baselines as a though term. Moreover and as you see in https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Printing_Register-true the current term is not really about an element or characteristic of the text/page but rather an ideal to be achieved "This term refers to the congruent imprint of the lines within a type area[...]" so it's kinda odd that is being used as a label for an on/off toggle. 

Nevertheless I hear you and so here are some options that could be a better fit than the current “Register-true”/“Reference Style:” in Page Style > Page (tab):

- Align to fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
- Fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
- Referenced line spacing / Paragraph style:

I think the 3rd would be a good because not only it's more clear it uses the same terminology from the Paragraph dialogue (Paragraph Styles > Indents & Spacing). To pair with this, in the Paragraph dialogue the group titled "Register-true" with the checkbox "Activate" would become:

- Referenced line spacing / Activate
Comment 9 V Stuart Foote 2019-09-04 15:10:28 UTC
Actually, (In reply to pedro.silva from comment #8)
> - Align to fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
> - Fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
> - Referenced line spacing / Paragraph style:
> 
> I think the 3rd would be a good because not only it's more clear it uses the
> same terminology from the Paragraph dialogue (Paragraph Styles > Indents &
> Spacing). To pair with this, in the Paragraph dialogue the group titled
> "Register-true" with the checkbox "Activate" would become:
> 
> - Referenced line spacing / Activate

Actually rather than "reference" (a paragraph style applied against the page) the concept would be "registration"--now common in alignment of offset press CMYK and half-tone image print work. But here it predates that considerably coming from the folding of large folio paper sizes to impose the signatures with correct sequence and alignment (front to back and across pages) -- when accomplished the printing and binding is "register-true" and "folded with the print".

But we have little support for imposing and printing 'folio, quarto, octavo, duodecimo, sextodecimo' layouts. Just look at the Print dialog's pages per sheet and order where we can not impose a multi-page print layout that would correctly _fold_. That and a lack of means to provide bleeds, trim, and registration marks means we can't directly perform DTP--and "register-true" while correct is not really appropriate.

What we are able to do well is provide correct page to page registration of textual content. As our pages are composed dynamically when paragraphs are rendered the printing on pages will not register--page to page, column to column. But when we enable "register-true" on page styles, and allow individual paragraphs to pick up the alignment from the selected reference paragraph's line height (its font height, internal leading, external leading) as a baseline the documents textual content will register as if "imposed" correctly and then "folded with the print", trimmed, and bound.

So, while "register-true" is a correct label--agree its etymology is obscure and is really not helpful UX--but the action is still registration.

Rather than Reference, I would suggest:

Register line spacing / Reference style
Comment 10 pedro.silva 2019-09-04 16:45:30 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #9)
[...]
> Actually rather than "reference" (a paragraph style applied against the
> page) the concept would be "registration"--now common in alignment of offset
> press CMYK and half-tone image print work. But here it predates that
> considerably coming from the folding of large folio paper sizes to impose
> the signatures with correct sequence and alignment (front to back and across
> pages) -- when accomplished the printing and binding is "register-true" and
> "folded with the print".
> 
> But we have little support for imposing and printing 'folio, quarto, octavo,
> duodecimo, sextodecimo' layouts. Just look at the Print dialog's pages per
> sheet and order where we can not impose a multi-page print layout that would
> correctly _fold_. That and a lack of means to provide bleeds, trim, and
> registration marks means we can't directly perform DTP--and "register-true"
> while correct is not really appropriate.

Thanks Stuart for all the context, to me, this is gold! I really appreciate the context and to know the reasoning behind.

> What we are able to do well is provide correct page to page registration of
> textual content. As our pages are composed dynamically when paragraphs are
> rendered the printing on pages will not register--page to page, column to
> column. But when we enable "register-true" on page styles, and allow
> individual paragraphs to pick up the alignment from the selected reference
> paragraph's line height (its font height, internal leading, external
> leading) as a baseline the documents textual content will register as if
> "imposed" correctly and then "folded with the print", trimmed, and bound.
> 
> So, while "register-true" is a correct label--agree its etymology is obscure
> and is really not helpful UX--but the action is still registration.

I agree with you, maybe having such a term based of print world without any relation with existent LO terminology might not be the clearest.

> Rather than Reference, I would suggest:
> 
> Register line spacing / Reference style

In my opinion this is already better when compared with the current labelling. However I'm having a hard time with "Register" or "Registration" because somehow the following doesn't let me stop worrying about UX:

- Register is better than the Register-true (because the latter is kinda of a state/adjective) but this term is based on printing but Document/page and its overall line spacing (leading, Baseline grid, vertical motion etc...) are not exclusive of print specially in this day and age.
- Users that know nothing about printing and don't own a printer they might be quite confused with it.
- Register often times called registration is also quite an uneasy term (to me, in this case) since there are other elements sharing the same name (e.g.: registration marks)
- Also a document can be on purpose misregistered (out of) for artistic purposes etc..

And in Reference style I think it would be still quite valuable to have in there the word "Paragraph" as it helps to connect the dots and invites the user to explore the Paragraph style dialogue etc.

Hm... I honestly think this is a great discussion and as I stated these (what you suggested) would be already better then what we have now but I would still use 

Page dialogue
- Referenced line spacing / Paragraph style:

"Reference" here would play quite well also in the paragraph dialogue

Paragraph dialogue
- Referenced line spacing / Activate

hm...but then again I understand your reasoning and maybe it would be good to leave some sort of trace for the user that already use and know the feature and all its context. And if so, then your proposal could be also a good option.

(goes away and expects no sleeping tonight on the accounts of thinking about this :p )
Comment 11 Heiko Tietze 2019-09-05 12:40:41 UTC
I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?
Comment 12 pedro.silva 2019-09-05 13:00:21 UTC
As Register line spacing / Reference style(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11)
> I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
> "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background
> expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?

As visible in the discussion I think it's reasonable to say that Register-true is far from ideal and I'm ok with any of the stated proposals. I'm mostly concerned with the UX aspect of it and if, as a plus, the feature gets more discoverable/used just because of labelling then I think it's awesome.

Stuart suggested: Register line spacing / Reference style

Which I have no problem with (just a few worries which I have already elaborate on that) but overall sounds good. I think.
Comment 13 V Stuart Foote 2019-09-05 13:59:39 UTC
Created attachment 153922 [details]
Text of ODF 1.2 standard for 20.328 and 20.329

http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1420116_253892949

So, while we can adjust the UI for better UX, we likely will always drag along the old printing/binding etymology.
Comment 14 Olivier Hallot 2019-09-05 16:52:32 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11)
> I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
> "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background
> expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?

To be honest, Register true is very obscure for the average user. Wording in 

https://help.libreoffice.org/6.4/en-US/text/shared/00/00000005.html?DbPAR=SHARED#bm_id3147315

does not help at all (e.g. "congruent imprint"). To improve the Help page on it, please help me on my own questions:

- When should I mark the RT check box? What do I get? (use case)
- what if I don't use RT? How bad it is?
- A sample image (l10n neutral) showing the differences of using RT and not...
Comment 15 pedro.silva 2019-09-25 09:26:26 UTC
(In reply to Olivier Hallot from comment #14)
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11)
> > I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
> > "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background
> > expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?
> 
> To be honest, Register true is very obscure for the average user. Wording in 
> 
> https://help.libreoffice.org/6.4/en-US/text/shared/00/00000005.
> html?DbPAR=SHARED#bm_id3147315
> 
> does not help at all (e.g. "congruent imprint"). To improve the Help page on
> it, please help me on my own questions:
> 
> - When should I mark the RT check box? What do I get? (use case)
> - what if I don't use RT? How bad it is?
> - A sample image (l10n neutral) showing the differences of using RT and
> not...

Agreed, I think the best explanation is available in the page 195 of the LibreOffice writer 6.0 Guide but then again when defining the term used to explain is **base line** and **base line grid** which was my initial proposal as well.
Comment 16 pedro.silva 2019-09-25 09:27:22 UTC
Created attachment 154471 [details]
How page dialog looks know (LO 6.3)
Comment 17 pedro.silva 2019-09-25 09:32:59 UTC
Created attachment 154472 [details]
Proposal: using the well know line spacing term

Since the base line term didn't get that much support (even though is used through out typography books and, just discovered, the writer guide itself) here and since the term "Line spacing" is already well-known by the users I tried to simplified this labelling by avoiding the use of any "base line" or "grid" and instead using line spacing and by having it clear what are the elements we are talking about (page vs paragraph) and how they affect our document.
Comment 18 Heiko Tietze 2019-09-25 10:04:57 UTC
Let's follow Pedro's suggestion.
Comment 19 pedro.silva 2019-09-25 10:07:32 UTC
Created attachment 154476 [details]
Proposal: Paragraph style dialog, follow page line spacing

reuse of the term "line spacing" and labelling the option starting with an action verb "Follow" and the element where the option comes from (page)
Comment 20 V Stuart Foote 2019-09-25 13:09:06 UTC
No objection, just continue to observe use of register-true internal to ODF. And, the New help articles could use some work as in comment 14