Created attachment 165966 [details]
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There a two paradigms/ approached used here .. if you ask me; this is confusing (and not (really) productive, IMHO)

Which is one of the elements of my whole page style topic.

What is the difference of this report to the other you made recently about page break?

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)
> What is the difference of this report to the other you made recently about
> page break?

This is about the page style being linked to the first paragraph on page. Other about applying page styles. 

I remember posting this specific topic as such somewhere. I know you hit it; I vaguely remember you closing it as not a bug. Could find it.

This topic is distinct from bug 136961 (and as far I read) from the other see also there..

This is part of the 'topic' being confusing topic. The 'system' regulating page breaks/page styles is 'riddled' with particularity's. 

Not sure where this started.. one cause is of course to 'next page models' the LibreOffice vision and MSO. Another is about 'attaching' page break/style to paragraph; not sure what the reasoning was back in the day (which think is different from MSO approach; and if this has an advantage maybe fine.. still not clear to me what the designer(s) had in mind. 

Where does the LibreOffice model (of attaching page style to first paragraph of a page) superior to say MSO. So what are the advantages.. and what are the costs doing it this way. I'm seeing lots of costs, but no exception advantages..  

Only legacy behavior (history based). Which needs some a re-evaluation (and maybe a overhaul. More topic of how to change something with the minimum of changes.

(In reply to Telesto from comment #4)
> This is about the page style being linked to the first paragraph on page.
> ...
> Where does the LibreOffice model (of attaching page style to first paragraph
> of a page) superior to say MSO. 

Why do you think Libreoffice behaves differently? I mean Page Style being attached to the paragraph is an essential feature of every word processor and defined in the open document format. We can and should not change this. Would it help when the page style is shown with the other styles in the Styles Inspector? At least it makes it more transparent for users.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> (In reply to Telesto from comment #4)
> > This is about the page style being linked to the first paragraph on page.
> > ...
> > Where does the LibreOffice model (of attaching page style to first paragraph
> > of a page) superior to say MSO. 
> 
> Why do you think Libreoffice behaves differently? 

Tried to 'express' that by the STR. If you press "Enter" at the first paragraph after page break (not matter where) the paragraph loses to page break setting.. or phrase it differently it 'remains' at the first line.
If you move up second paragraph (second line) to the first, the break setting will be 'attached' full paragraph block

If you cut/paste text from the first paragraph (which be multiple lines/ block), they 'break' setting is included in the copy/paste. So you get new 'break' after past if you paste at an empty line. If you paste next to present text this doesn't happen. 

If the 'break setting'being truly an attribute of the first paragraph.. then the coherent would be.. a new page (with page break) after pressing Enter. 

FWIW.. you can simply reproduce the same document in Word MSO and compare behavior. 

> attached to the paragraph is an essential feature of every word processor
> and defined in the open document format. We can and should not change this.
We need first to make sure we talking about the same thing :-)

> Would it help when the page style is shown with the other styles in the
> Styles Inspector? At least it makes it more transparent for users.

For inspecting.. yes. Certainly be informative. Except I don't see the relation to the present topic :-). I'm talking about 'the paragraph' style being set to first paragraph. 

And issue is mostly focusing on cut or copy & pasting text present in the first paragraph after a page break.

Bug 120469 comment 1 explains the cause of difference between 'enter' and copy (Mike Kaganski) 

Well - technically you are not moving the paragraph, but split the existing one, creating *a new following paragraph* with the contents from previous... thus it's strictly speaking correct that all paragraph anchors continue to point to the paragraph object that has lost its content, but not its identity...

@Aron
Would like to now your (UX) opinion this.. As this touches the same area as bug 120469 (the index 0) topic in some way. Except it's a 'feature' here (if you ask me) and copy/paste (or cut/paste) is broken.. Heiko has an different opinion.. Or we are speaking a different language and we simply don't understand each other and we are in need of translator.

Would be interested in Mike's opinion too.

2 - user would not expect page break to change - works as user would expect.
8 - perhaps surprising, since it isn't copying the whole paragraph.  But these are always empty paragraphs, so likely there are very good reasons why in general a empty paragraphs with no formatting should obtain the paragraph properties of the characters that are pasted.  If there is ANY direct formatting on the paragraph, then the pasted page break (and other properties) are ignored.
10 - this is just adding characters to an existing paragraph - not expecting paragraph properties to be copied in this situation.
14 - same as 8.
18. same as 8.
24. same as 8. Ctrl-A copied two pages, so pasting it in the second empty paragraph will add two pages starting at the second paragraph - resulting in a total of three. Makes sense to me.

So, in the end, this is totally consistent. A paragraph with all default formatting will take on the formatting of the pasted characters. NOTABUG.

I don't fully understand the specific problem discussed in this report. In the view of bug 138628 comment 42, I assume this to be an enhancement request for introduction of a page-break-as-separate-object concept (?)

Page-break-as-separate-object could have at least one real advantage: in case when one wants to insert a page break in the middle of a paragraph, without actually breaking the paragraph into two. This use case is similar to the use of line break character, when one is not satisfied with automatic line breaking, and wants to force the line break in a specific place without breaking the paragraph. Currently the same is not possible for page breaks, and manual page break requires a new paragraph, with implications for formatting (think of first paragraph line indent), search-and-replace (it doesn't work natively across paragraphs), and so on.

However, in this case that hypothetical page-break object (character) should only break pages, and have no properties related to page formatting by its own. So it must only substitute the automatically inserted page break, and must not alter the automatically assigned page style.

In any case, it is not a replacement for the current page-break-as-paragraph-property concept, which has huge advantage when used together with paragraph styles, allowing to produce automatic and consistent page breaks and styling depending on document structure. Being a paragraph property has also a drawback that it requires user to realize this to avoid surprises (that seem to be the reason for filing this?), but that's normal with any advanced concept.

(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #12)
> I don't fully understand the specific problem discussed in this report. In
> the view of bug 138628 comment 42, I assume this to be an enhancement
> request for introduction of a page-break-as-separate-object concept (?)

In hindsight, yes I think so. I started with a 'issue' without concrete solution. But made some turns left in right before ending up at that point. 

Must of the sting would already be gone if the wouldn't be set for for 'all characters' within the paragraph (as such), but would be about the starting of a paragraph (word/character). 

But not totally grasping the advantage/idea behind page break being a paragraph setting (except it can be applied by paragraph style). So maybe me lacking the relevant knowledge why it's attributed to all characters within the paragraph. 

> Page-break-as-separate-object could have at least one real advantage: in
> case when one wants to insert a page break in the middle of a paragraph,
> without actually breaking the paragraph into two. This use case is similar
> to the use of line break character, when one is not satisfied with automatic
> line breaking, and wants to force the line break in a specific place without
> breaking the paragraph. Currently the same is not possible for page breaks,
> and manual page break requires a new paragraph, with implications for
> formatting (think of first paragraph line indent), search-and-replace (it
> doesn't work natively across paragraphs), and so on.
> 
> However, in this case that hypothetical page-break object (character) should
> only break pages, and have no properties related to page formatting by its
> own. So it must only substitute the automatically inserted page break, and
> must not alter the automatically assigned page style.

Yes
> 
> In any case, it is not a replacement for the current
> page-break-as-paragraph-property concept, which has huge advantage when used
> together with paragraph styles, allowing to produce automatic and consistent
> page breaks and styling depending on document structure. 
Yes

> Being a paragraph property has also a drawback that it requires user to 
> realize this to avoid surprises (that seem to be the reason for filing this?), 

Yes
> but that's normal with any advanced concept.

Problem is also terminology. Using "page break" for "paragraph page breaks" is kind of breaking the silent convention about the meaning page break. There is kind of 'settled' terminology in the world of Office Suites, (object oriented). And the LibreOffice one does look like/behave like a 'regular' page break, until..

So feels like LibreOffice re-inventing the meaning. The evolution sometimes quite natural. Book <-> E-book (e-book lacking lacking lots of characteristics of a book). Pick-up the phone (was about landline). Converted to mobile. Tablet electronic devise <-> stone tablet.

(In reply to Telesto from comment #13)
> Problem is also terminology. Using "page break" for "paragraph page breaks"
> is kind of breaking the silent convention about the meaning page break.
> There is kind of 'settled' terminology in the world of Office Suites,
> (object oriented). And the LibreOffice one does look like/behave like a
> 'regular' page break, until..
> 
> So feels like LibreOffice re-inventing the meaning.

Usual "I am used to another suite" bias in disguise of talks about "conventions". LibreOffice roots are in 1980s, when *word processing* component of future StarOffice was created first. Then the concepts were only being created (with different suites following own concepts), and no, LibreOffice is not inventing it here, it is using something established long ago. And things like comment 13 are just another way of telling "no matter what, I want it like in MS Office".

(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #14)
> (In reply to Telesto from comment #13)
> > Problem is also terminology. Using "page break" for "paragraph page breaks"
> > is kind of breaking the silent convention about the meaning page break.
> > There is kind of 'settled' terminology in the world of Office Suites,
> > (object oriented). And the LibreOffice one does look like/behave like a
> > 'regular' page break, until..
> > 
> > So feels like LibreOffice re-inventing the meaning.
> 
> Usual "I am used to another suite" bias in disguise of talks about
> "conventions". LibreOffice roots are in 1980s, when *word processing*
> component of future StarOffice was created first. Then the concepts were
> only being created (with different suites following own concepts), and no,
> LibreOffice is not inventing it here, it is using something established long
> ago. And things like comment 13 are just another way of telling "no matter
> what, I want it like in MS Office".

That's kind of harshly put. Yes, MSO (or maybe even MS) is a strong influence on me related to expectations to design (say menu structure) and functions. But assume this not 'a specific property of mine'

Mimicking the competitor is often done. And even used in design decision at LibreOffice today (need of style inspector). Or the tabbed bar design.  

The other office suite competitors are mimicking MSO too. Not really original, true. But done with a reason. 

Yes, the LibreOffice page break implementation is surely not new. It might have been the 'standard' if LibreOffice would be today's MSO. But this isn't the case. 
LibreOffice isn't 'leader' setting standards (ok, ODT), but more or less a follower. LibreOffice can't ignore the competition. It even has to implement DOCX/DOC filters. How evil the standard might be, you can't say we stick with ODT. MSO being able to ignore ODT without any dent in sales.

It's easier for people moving from Office Suite A to B by being a look alike in features and behavior (competitors doing the same). People are lazy folk, and want something the recognize. Like the one who invented to qwerty keyboard. Which is far from optimal. But kind of embedded in society. 

And the 'page break" 'to paragraph' has it downsides too. Copied around quite a number of page breaks be incident. 

Not proposing to drop unique properties of LibreOffice as such. But tend to see it as 'add-on' to mainstream/common idea of today. It's kind of 'lost battle', IMHO.

Or putting it differently I'm not seeing much harm in 'page break as object' alternative for sake making it users easy to migrate. Holding on to page break as formatting feels kind of stubbornly going against the flow (to me).

And I assume page breaks are converted for object type as in MSO DOCX/DOC to a 'to paragraph' page break in LibreOffice. Which surely not matches 'reality', IMHO

(In reply to Telesto from comment #15)

Almost totally off-topic. (And puzzled why Style Inspector was mentioned in that context.) We don't talk about battles and competition. We are talking about a specific feature, that MS Word *lacks*, and which is one of the best features Writer *has*. So no amount of "this is lost battle" reasoning is useful here.

"Mimicking" is when we create *shortcuts* for people with specific expectations, like "insert page break". This allows users who are newbies to start using functionality in a similar "intuitive" way. But that doesn't mean that internals change to match. It is only a convenience means.

But then it is expected that user of LibreOffice starts learning *it*, with its specifics. Well, instead many insist that LibreOffice is "cheap/free" MSO, and must not differ in every aspect (like comment 15). Which is *wrong*, and LO is *not* trying to be that, not aiming to be that.

And then - again - go endless walls of philosophical text, instead of focusing on the issue here. So the issue - again - becomes useless.

I tried to make it focused in comment 12. You may try to enhance your own issue, or you are free to make it even worse by adding what no one will ever read in full. Your choice (as always).

This thread has become pretty off-topic. The page break concept is reasonable and effective. Plus, this concept has its grounds in the open document format. Meaning we cannot ignore and do something different. 

Let's follow Justin's opinion in c11 and resolve as NAB.

*** Bug 139644 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***