Bug 150045 - Several dialogs have secondary/explicative labels that need to be smaller
Summary: Several dialogs have secondary/explicative labels that need to be smaller
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: UI (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
7.4.0.0 beta1+
Hardware: All All
: low enhancement
Assignee: Adolfo Jayme Barrientos
URL:
Whiteboard: target:7.5.0 target:7.6.0 target:7.5.2
Keywords: needsUXEval
Depends on: 119827
Blocks:
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2022-07-18 16:33 UTC by Adolfo Jayme Barrientos
Modified: 2023-05-22 08:35 UTC (History)
3 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
7.3.1 Headers/Footers (300.84 KB, image/png)
2022-07-29 13:37 UTC, Michael Warner
Details
7.3.1 Headers/Footers (2.41 MB, image/png)
2022-07-29 13:44 UTC, Michael Warner
Details
7.6.0.0.alpha1+ screenshot of Formula dialog compared to GNOME settings and Thunderbird (178.57 KB, image/png)
2023-05-19 10:15 UTC, Stéphane Guillou (stragu)
Details

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Description Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 2022-07-18 16:33:09 UTC
Dialogs that need smaller text:

Shared
    • View > User Interface
    • Options > Online Update
    • Paragraph Style > “Organizer” tab > “Contains” frame
    • Set Master Password
Writer
    • Edit > Exchange Databases
    • Tools > Mail Merge Wizard
Calc
    • Insert > Headers/Footers
    • Tools > Share Spreadsheet
    • Format > Cells > “Cell Protection” tab
Math
    • Tools > Symbols (and > Edit Symbols)

Feel free to add more.
Comment 1 Michael Warner 2022-07-19 13:29:35 UTC
In my installation, the text in those dialogs is fine as-is. I don't see any reason it should be smaller. Making it smaller will make it more difficult to read. 

Version: 7.3.4.2 / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 728fec16bd5f605073805c3c9e7c4212a0120dc5
CPU threads: 10; OS: Mac OS X 12.4; UI render: default; VCL: osx
Locale: en-US (en_US.UTF-8); UI: en-US
Calc: threaded
Comment 2 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 2022-07-19 18:17:11 UTC
Michael: the change will not make it unreadable. Dialogs need texture and hierarchy, and this is one step towards that.
Comment 3 Michael Warner 2022-07-29 13:37:20 UTC Comment hidden (no-value)
Comment 4 Michael Warner 2022-07-29 13:43:25 UTC
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme Barrientos from comment #2)
> Michael: the change will not make it unreadable. Dialogs need texture and
> hierarchy, and this is one step towards that.

Perhaps you will change it in a way that you think is readable...on your screen, with your level of visual acuity. But other people have different equipment and different needs. 

I have attached a screenshot of the Calc Insert Headers/Footers dialog, for one example. To help me understand this change, can you please describe further what labels need to be smaller? They seem small enough to me as it is.
Comment 5 Michael Warner 2022-07-29 13:44:18 UTC
Created attachment 181492 [details]
7.3.1 Headers/Footers

Full screen shot for size reference.
Comment 6 Commit Notification 2022-07-30 02:22:25 UTC
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/1bdd72e2d7f4cd5d438646a1ac1aeade9432ec96

tdf#150045 Set secondary/explanatory labels apart

It will be available in 7.5.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Comment 7 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 2022-07-30 02:41:15 UTC
@Michael: See https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/components/layout-and-organization/labels#:~:text=A%20subheading%20or%20supplemental%20text for things your well-designed Mac apps already do: set secondary texts apart. For LO, the approach is more similar to Windows’, however: we are not changing to dimmed, more difficult to read colors, like in https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/design/style/typography#type-ramp and https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/text-ui#:~:text=select%20or%20modify.-,Supplemental%20explanations,-an%20elaboration%20of
Comment 8 Commit Notification 2022-11-04 03:32:19 UTC
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/5efb023c27e693654b09c45894a6f4a50f3d950e

tdf#150045 Supplemental label in Validity dialog

It will be available in 7.5.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Comment 9 Commit Notification 2023-02-14 12:18:42 UTC
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/41c3c2dfaeee7fbd410fd76d4254ae9696a173a2

tdf#150045 A few more supplemental labels

It will be available in 7.6.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Comment 10 Commit Notification 2023-03-06 23:48:58 UTC
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/0484a9a3f5e2ecb678f6fb41bbb251529e89c00d

tdf#150045 Spotted another secondary label

It will be available in 7.6.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Comment 11 Commit Notification 2023-03-07 13:15:26 UTC
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "libreoffice-7-5":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/88e517f361a57c1f78eab0678ba1a2ae3f64ac9b

tdf#150045 A few more supplemental labels

It will be available in 7.5.2.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Comment 12 Commit Notification 2023-05-03 16:13:17 UTC
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/feb2bec3c3f02881df3f447a72e4d9f214e1481b

Formula W.: tdf#78826 colons tdf#150045 sec. labels

It will be available in 7.6.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Comment 13 ady 2023-05-12 12:27:44 UTC
In Calc 7.6.alpha > Function Wizard > select any Calc function, the text describing the function is too small now. It is also the same for each next step in the Function Wizard, for the arguments of each function.

It may be barely readable under some conditions, but what would be the reason to make this particular text smaller to begin with? Why visually challenged users have to make an additional effort? What resulting benefit is there in this dialog? Which space was not enough in this dialog that demanded making this text smaller? Is there an objective reason? I don't see it.
Comment 14 Mike Kaganski 2023-05-15 09:33:08 UTC
I actually fail to see why comment 1 (and others) by Michael Warner were *dismissed* as "no-value". Being exactly on-topic, expressing an alternate view on the desirability of the intended change, dismissed like that seems simply inappropriate.
Comment 15 Stéphane Guillou (stragu) 2023-05-19 08:31:49 UTC
I agree with Ady in comment 13, the text is now hard to read, at least on Ubuntu 20.04 with GNOME 3.36.8 and:

Version: 7.6.0.0.alpha1+ (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 1349f140fcc49e5da78482ca3db09663ccdae0a9
CPU threads: 8; OS: Linux 5.15; UI render: default; VCL: gtk3
Locale: en-AU (en_AU.UTF-8); UI: en-US
Calc: threaded

I can see this being an accessibility issue for many people.
Copying the UX team in for opinion.
Comment 16 Mike Kaganski 2023-05-19 08:42:53 UTC
Referring to the "see also" bug 150333 comment 9, please note that the UI 100% font height should be considered as the absolute minimum, and at no occasion should a smaller value be used - this size is the minimum used in the OS UI. Any hierarchical size difference must only use larger sizes, not smaller.
Comment 17 Stéphane Guillou (stragu) 2023-05-19 10:15:08 UTC
Created attachment 187398 [details]
7.6.0.0.alpha1+ screenshot of Formula dialog compared to GNOME settings and Thunderbird
Comment 18 Heiko Tietze 2023-05-22 08:35:22 UTC
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme Barrientos from comment #2)
> Dialogs need texture and hierarchy...

Besides potential a11y issues we a) use bold font weight for frames, and b) 90% is not adding value to the UI organization (eg. I wouldn't see the difference in the UI dialog; while at the same time this huge white space in the mentioned function wizard is odd). And last but not least design-wise it's not recommended to use another attribute to structure the UI in addition to spacing, indention, and bold font. 

Do you agree, Adolfo?