LibreOffice UI language (and direction) are set independently of the documents one works on in LO. Thus, if one has chosen an English UI for LO, then opens an Arabic ODT file in Writer, with RTL pages and Arabic text - the UI will remain in English, with the menu bar ordered LTR, the sidebar on the right side of the window, etc; nothing will be flipped to become RTL. This is true, in particular, for Calc... with one significant exception. The sheet tab area, below the sheet horizontal scrollbar, has the _UI_ direction set to RTL or LTR based on the current sheet direction. This is wrong and inconsistent. It also creates jarring effects when sheets in different directions are used in the same Calc document; and gives rise to complaints such as bug 100585 and bug 157784. Let us put an end to this silliness and keep the sheet tabs area in the same direction as the rest of the Calc UI.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #0) > keep the sheet tabs area in the same > direction as the rest of the Calc UI. IOW (IIUC), the worksheet name tabs should be located on the UI to the left on LTR UI, while the tabs should be located to the right side of the UI on RTL UI, disregarding: * whether the worksheet is set RTL or LTR; * whether the name of the worksheet uses LTR or RTL text direction; * whether the content of the worksheet has LTR or RTL text direction in any cell. I would probably agree that the suggestion makes sense, but I am worried about older or advance users; since the current "jumping" behavior has been the behavior for such a long time, changing it now could be either desirable or unwanted, depending on users' workflow. Perhaps feedback from RTL users is very relevant before the behavior is changed, and if/when it is, it should be promptly and clearly advertised beforehand. I also recall that there are other bugs related to the worksheet (name) tabs in RTL UI, such as moving by keyboard shortcuts.
Fair point about getting feedback, and it's true that this is long-standing behavior - but it's a long-standing _bug_. One of those things that's been wrong for so long that you just kind of got used to it...
I appreciate the clearer description, but as I understand it, the issue described is exactly the same as in bug 100585. Let's have the conversation there. Marking as duplicate. *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 100585 ***
(In reply to Stéphane Guillou (stragu) from comment #3) > I appreciate the clearer description, but as I understand it, the issue > described is exactly the same as in bug 100585. Bug 100585 is about the ordering sheet tabs. This is about the layout of the UI, including buttons, the position of the entire set of ordered tabs (left side or right side of the window) etc. Not a dupe. I thought this was clear, but - if you'd like screenshots, I can make them...
Stéphane Guillou (stragu) 2023-10-29 08:05:41 UTC : > this needs to be made consistent: > "UI jumping" should be reduced. In my (non RTL-UI user) opinion, > if it's only the sheet that is RTL, only the column headers > should be flipped, as it's the only part of the UI that _has_ to > flip to match the contents of the sheet. The rest of > surrounding UI should not change. So the Sheet Tabs should do > the same as e.g. the Formula Bar: its position and direction > should not change. These should only be dependent on the RTL UI > setting. Exactly.
I believe that tdf#157784 comment 21 is related to this bug 157961 rather than solving bug 157784 (so tdf#157784 would not be really "fixed" ATM, IMHO). Bug 157784 shows why I mentioned requiring feedback before rushing any specific "solution". Please forgive my verbosity; this RTL UX/UI situation has been inadequate for too long, so it requires precision in its description. Please consider the following UI aspects related to RTL worksheets (whether standalone or in combination with LTR worksheets): * location of worksheet name tabs: on the right side or on the left side of the UI; this bug 157961 requests the location of these tabs to be related to the UI language: ** left-sided for LTR UI, independent of the RTL worksheet setting ** right-sided for RTL UI, independent of the RTL worksheet setting * order of appearance (from left-to-right, or from right-to-left, or a combination depending on RTL setting of the current worksheet) of new/added worksheet tabs; * what specific worksheet tab is to be considered the "next"? And which is to be considered the "prior" worksheet tab? The order should not vary (i.e. independent on UI settings or on RTL settings), but maybe the location (right-to-left or left-to-right) would/should depend on UI language. For this to be clear, screenshots (of the goal) for RTL and LTR settings and UI languages should be attached. * location and direction of column headers for RTL worksheets; * location of row headers for RTL worksheets. For RTL users, this item is probably more related to RTL worksheet settings, rather than to UI language interface. As of 2023-11-02 Build ID: c0c8cffd3541e3cd616c96791b04e7ebf2b2ed03 for Windows, the location of the row headers seems related to the worksheet tab location (instead of being related to the column headers direction from RTL), and I believe that most RTL users won't enjoy this UX too much. Considering bug 157784, there seems to be need for reasonable new default behavior / UX according to UI language, and (unfortunately) some way to modify the location/direction of these items; after so many years, there is simply no way to satisfy all RTL users with a single unified uniform location of these 3 items and their respective behaviors for RTL worksheets (alone or in combination with LTR worksheets). Comparing with other spreadsheet tools regarding RTL worksheets might be useful in order to obtain a reasonable UX.
*** Bug 100585 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
I wrote a long comment for bug 157784, but in the interim the bug/regression was solved by (thankfully!) reverting the problematic patch. The issue of the ordering of the sheet tabs remains, however. Since, like Mahmoud there, I use an LTR interface but work very frequently with RTL-only and mixed LTR/RTL spreadsheets, I figured an additional opinion might be of use. The simplest and most elegant solution, IMO, would be to make this aspect of the UI easily configurable, e.g., an option could be added, e.g., under "View" there could be an option "Display Sheet Order" with two radio buttons "LTR" and "RTL." The default behavior could follow the user interface unless this option is changed, although I can imagine two other solutions: 1) Follow the directionality of the majority of the sheets (this fails if there are an equal number of LTR and RTL sheets); 2) The first time a sheet of different directionality than the UI is created, a pop up could appear: "Switch direction of sheet order?" (A similar pop up could also deal with the failure case of option 1.) (Regarding Mahmoud's larger complaints about UI tinkering, I am reminded of the lengthy discussion in bug 155494 regarding a change in cursor behavior that many of those commenting thought was poorly-considered. Perhaps there needs to be a "public comment" system for proposed UI changes in which users could give their input and vote.)
(In reply to William Friedman from comment #8) I obviously agree with William regarding the default. I don't mind whether this is made configurable or not - although I think that people will get used to sheet tabs just following the UI direction, soon enough, and may not really want to switch to the current behavior. But this is speculation on my part. If the option of a dialog popping up is chosen, I would like to be able to configure it so that it will never come up (i.e. always stick with what I've chosen as default). I don't have a strong opinion about whether having such a dialog is a good idea or not. Maybe it depends on how intrusive it would actually be. Perhaps it could be something like a small bubble popping up next to the sheet tabs rather than a full-blown dialog? I wonder.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #9) > although I think > that people will get used to sheet tabs just following the UI direction, > soon enough, That is not a realistic assumption for some users, IMO. If an old user has dozens of workbooks built a decade (or 2 or 3) ago, they were built with the consideration of the old behavior. And old users adapted their own workflow to the behavior that was available back then, for decades. It is possible that, for new workbooks, the new behavior will be adopted by old users. Or maybe not, because muscle memory and old habits are hard to forget. Is the old worksheet tab “jumping” behavior preferable? Probably not, but after decades, forcing a new behavior on everyone is not going to be welcome, as proven already in recent reports. Both alternatives should be offered; old “jumping worksheet tab” behavior, and UI-locale-dependent behavior. Unfortunately, RTL issues keep piling up faster than they are solved, for decades now. There are several items that cannot be really considered one by one, but as a whole (also proven by recent attempts to solve the problem, only to anger users that do not agree on what the adequate desired behavior should be). * Location of the worksheet tab according to RTL worksheet setting, or IOW the old "jumping" tab when the worksheet is changed from RTL to LTR or vice versa. * Location of the worksheet tab according to UI RTL or UI LTR; no "jumping" worksheet tab. * Behavior of the action of introducing a new worksheet tab; where the new tab will be located?, will it be RTL or LTR?, dependent on what?, what other default settings should users expect regarding the new worksheet and within it, and depending on which settings? * Location (right or left) of Column A, or IOW "direction" of the columns in the Column header from Column A, B, C, and up. * Location of the Row header (which should always cross the Column header wherever the "origin/zero" point would be, near Column A, whichever the location of Column A would be). * Text direction (RTL or LTR) within the cells is another thing; let's not mix. * Text direction within the worksheet tab itself (worksheet name, e.g "Sheet2" in English) is another thing; let's not mix.
(In reply to ady from comment #10) > (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #9) > > > although I think > > that people will get used to sheet tabs just following the UI direction, > > soon enough, > > That is not a realistic assumption for some users, IMO. I said I was just speculating and I can definitely be wrong.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #11) > (In reply to ady from comment #10) > > (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #9) > > > > > although I think > > > that people will get used to sheet tabs just following the UI direction, > > > soon enough, > > > > That is not a realistic assumption for some users, IMO. > > I said I was just speculating and I can definitely be wrong. Bug 157784 shows at least one example of what I said several times. I personally would favor worksheet tab location based on UI RTL/LTR, but clearly some not-newbies RTL users prefer the older "jumping" behavior. I also agree with bugs 158768 and 158552 reporting the regression (now reverted) regarding the location of the Row header; it should always cross the Column header near column A, no matter where the side of the screen that would be. But maybe we are only 3 users that were bothered by that regression. Now that Andreas reverted the patch, we are back with the same problems as before regarding RTL.