At the moment, I see the following available sidebar decks (or sidebar modes if you will) in Impress: * Properties * Styles * Gallery * Navigator * Slide Transitions * Animations * Master Slides but - I don't see a "Slide Layouts" deck available. Why not? It's something that's very natural to want to see illustrations of, when selecting, rather than a choice of a textual list.
SB Decks are composed of Content Panels, one or several. The 'Layouts' Content Panel already exists and in Impress was placed on the 'Properties' deck Where it belongs, suited to task.
I'll set back to unconfirmed as it was routed to UX-advise... But my positions remains a clear => WF as unnecessary clutter.
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1) > SB Decks are composed of Content Panels, one or several. > > The 'Layouts' Content Panel already exists and in Impress was placed on the > 'Properties' deck It's placed on the "Properties" deck only if nothing on the slide is selected. If a content panel were sufficient - I would think the same could be said for Slide Transitions. In fact, I'd say Slide Layouts are chosen much more often than inter-slide transitions, which are typically not used at all in a presentation (AFAICT).
The slide layout is an attribute of the whole slide description likewise the master. And I could imagine to have those option on the Master Slides tab, which is badly underloved by developers however. And users are probably familiar with the current workflow. Another approach could be to not show these options in the sidebar at all and defer to the dialogs. Reasoning behind this idea would be to limit the sidebar to frequently changed attributes. See also bug 110436 "Removal of the Master Pages sidebar deck".
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > The slide layout is an attribute of the whole slide description likewise the > master. And I could imagine to have those option on the Master Slides tab, > which is badly underloved by developers however. But even if it were "loved" - would you not need a vast increase in the number of masters, to have one master for each possible layout? And if you don't have a master for each layout, then again there is the question of making all layouts easily accessible. > Another approach could be to not show these options in the sidebar at all > and defer to the dialogs. Reasoning behind this idea would be to limit the > sidebar to frequently changed attributes. This would not do for layouts. Why? Because you need a large (ish) area to present the different layouts, and the sidebar provides that area. Now, it's true that you could create a layout-selection dialog filling up a lot of the center of the app window; but that would hide the slide. What you probably want is to present the layout possibilities on one of the _sides_ of the window. And that's where the _side_ bar comes in... > See also bug 110436 "Removal of the Master Pages sidebar deck". It's good that you brought that one up, as switching master slides is on the same order of frequency as switching slide layout. And just like we kept the former, we should offer the latter. Another point regarding use of the properties tab: It is not counter-intuitive, that one can make slide-level changes like Master Slide and Transition Effect, without de-selecting objects - and yet one must de-select objects in order to switch the slide layout.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > The slide layout is an attribute of the whole slide description likewise the > master. And I could imagine to have those option on the Master Slides tab, > which is badly underloved by developers however. And users are probably > familiar with the current workflow. The layout is not part of the master slide in ODF, but is a separate property of the individual slide. You can combine each layout with each master slide. That is different to PowerPoint, where the layout+master combination is a child of the master. So the master-slide pane would not be the correct place for the layout. Bug 62332 tracks the wish to get something similar as the layout+master combinations in PowerPoint. BTW: The current import from PowerPoint is faulty in that it creates for each layout+master a separate master slide and thus the information that all these layouts belong to the same master is lost. (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #5) > It's good that you brought that one up, as switching master slides is on the > same order of frequency as switching slide layout. And just like we kept the > former, we should offer the latter. I disagree here. Setting a new master is less often than selecting the layout of a slide. There are often presentations with only one master but using several layouts. For selecting the layout of the slide, no pane in the sidebar is needed. The toolbar has a drop-down-list with illustrations and is always available. That is enough, at least for me. But I would like to have the selection of the master-slide in the slide properties pane as separate section (similar Layouts) that shows a preview, instead of the current list that has only text.
> > It's good that you brought that one up, as switching master slides is on the > > same order of frequency as switching slide layout. And just like we kept the > > former, we should offer the latter. > > I disagree here. Setting a new master is less often than selecting the > layout of a slide. There are often presentations with only one master but > using several layouts. For selecting the layout of the slide, no pane in the > sidebar is needed. The toolbar has a drop-down-list with illustrations and > is always available. That is enough, at least for me. Ah, even better :-) we can agree that layout selection is usually/often _at least as_ frequent as the choice of a master slide. And this strengthens the argument for offering the selection of slide layouts via a sidebar deck.
The slide layout becomes visible on the Properties deck if no object is selected.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #8) > The slide layout becomes visible on the Properties deck if no object is > selected. Yes, I know. The ask is for it to be visible without having to: 1. Remember this fact and 2. De-select objects instead there would be a button with an icon which suggests a layout change, and the user would just click it.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #9) > instead there would be a button with an icon... Effectively another tab. That's why I commented: (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > I could imagine to have those option on the Master Slides tab...
@regina, (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #6) > BTW: The current import from PowerPoint is faulty in that it creates for > each layout+master a separate master slide and thus the information that all > these layouts belong to the same master is lost. I see no bug for that, correct?
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > The slide layout is an attribute of the whole slide description likewise the > master. And I could imagine to have those option on the Master Slides tab, Which then should be named "Master Slide and Layouts.. No objection to that, however.. still there would be need for the Layouts to be on the Properties tab, as is now. In the stage it shows the slide properties, also Master Slide can be set.
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12) > No objection to that, .. Even like it :)
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #11) > @regina, > > (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #6) > > BTW: The current import from PowerPoint is faulty in that it creates for > > each layout+master a separate master slide and thus the information that all > > these layouts belong to the same master is lost. > I see no bug for that, correct? Yes, there was no one. Is now in bug 162545.
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12) > (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #4) > > The slide layout is an attribute of the whole slide description likewise the > > master. And I could imagine to have those option on the Master Slides tab, > Which then should be named "Master Slide and Layouts.. > No objection to that, That would be an improvement, certainly. The button for the Master Slides deck is also more easy to guess when you're looking for layouts. However - there is a sidebar real-estate consideration issue. The Master Slides deck already takes up most or all of the window height. Where would we put the layouts? Those also take up most of the window height. Yes, one can scroll, but that is still not very accessible. Or we could do it the other way around: Layouts first, master slides later. Also not ideal. This, while on the sidebar we have plenty of space for more decks. Why not their own deck? > however.. still there would be need for the Layouts to > be on the Properties tab, as is now. Certainly, they can be there as well. > In the stage it shows the slide properties, also Master Slide can be set. I'm not against that; no strong opinion in favor or against. But I would make it a separate bug since this does not depend on how we resolve this one IMHO.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #15) > (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12) > > however.. still there would be need for the Layouts to > > be on the Properties tab, as is now. > > Certainly, they can be there as well. > > > In the stage it shows the slide properties, also Master Slide can be set. > > I'm not against that; no strong opinion in favor or against. But I would > make it a separate bug since this does not depend on how we resolve this one > IMHO. It already is there on the properties tab; I tried to describe the current stage (but Dutch != English :p )
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #16) > It already is there on the properties tab; I tried to describe the current > stage (but Dutch != English :p ) Well, yes and no; there is the Master Slide drop-down box, but not the "gallery" of available masters, like the "gallery" of layouts.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #15) > However - there is a sidebar real-estate consideration issue. The Master > Slides deck already takes up most or all of the window height. Where would I never understand so well why people want to able to pick Master Slides from all included presentations, but .. ;) > we put the layouts? Those also take up most of the window height. Yes, one Luckily it is easy to collapse/expand the panes. (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #17) > Well, yes and no; there is the Master Slide drop-down box, but not the > "gallery" of available masters, like the "gallery" of layouts. Ah yeah, the strange-to-the-presentation Master Slides are not shown. IMO an advantage .. ;)
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #18) > Ah yeah, the strange-to-the-presentation Master Slides are not shown. > IMO an advantage .. ;) Perhaps (I'm on the fence about that); but for layouts - it is essential to see the layout gallery. I believe (though I don't have statistical proof of course ), that the vast majority of uses of layouts are through gallery choices rather than the context menu with the list of layout names.
We discussed the topic in the design meeting. The properties tab contains panels that contextually are shown like character attributes for text boxes, (glow) effects for shapes, and image modification for raster graphics. Among these we also have a panel for slide attributes and a layout picker. The context here is the whole slide, meaning you have to unselect other items. We discussed to always show the layout, yet collapsed, but decide against to maintain the context metaphor. This workflow is the same as on MSO. => NAB (invalid since we do have a panel for the layout)
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #20) > We discussed the topic in the design meeting. Did you really? I read the minutes; half the discussion seems to have been about something else than the ask here. And the motivation and arguments for this request were not refuted nor was an alternative for satisfying the motivation suggested. > The properties tab contains panels that contextually are shown like > character attributes for text boxes, (glow) effects for shapes, and image > modification for raster graphics. Among these we also have a panel for slide > attributes and a layout picker. The context here is the whole slide, meaning > you have to unselect other items. > > We discussed to always show the layout, yet collapsed, but decide against to > maintain the context metaphor. That's really not what this bug is about. And you did not seem to discuss how come slide transitions is important enough to have its own sidebar deck, and be available regardless of selection, while slide layouts, being much much more frequent in use - does not. > This workflow is the same as on MSO. On the contrary, this workflow is the opposite from MSO in every way. In MS Powerpoint: 1. changing layout is independent of what's currently selected. 2. the sidebar is never (AFAICT) used for showing a gallery of potential layouts. 3. there are dialog-buttons for layout selection on the home ribbon, both for new slides and for the current slides. Bottom line: I don't know what happened in that design meeting, but a serious discussion of this bug report is not it. Re-raising the flags so that an _actual_ discussion take place.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #21) can you pls respect ..
@Eyal: You can show the toolbar "Presentation". It has the drop-down list "Slide Layout" with illustrations, and changing layout with this tool works whether something is selected or not. The fact that the toolbar is shown is remembered. And if you do not need the other tools of that toolbar, disable them. Or put the command "Slide Layout" into the "Standard" toolbar.
sorry, resolution change was not intended
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #22) > can you pls respect .. I respect a proper discussion of an enhancement request, not what happened in the design meeting yesterday.
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #23) > @Eyal: You can show the toolbar "Presentation". That's actually a good point. While I believe it's better to show the layout options on the larger area of the sidebar - I would accept a WONTFIX based on the presence of that button. Heiko? On the other hand - why does this not apply to Slide Transitions? i.e. how can Slide Transitions be so important that they need their own sidebar deck, while layouts don't? They could go on a button in the presentation toolbar as well, couldn't they?
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #25) > (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #22) > > can you pls respect .. > > I respect a proper discussion of an enhancement request, not what happened > in the design meeting yesterday. You are only showing that you are not able to respect any discussion that leads to an outcome that you do not agree with.
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #27) > You are only showing that you are not able to respect any discussion that > leads to an outcome that you do not agree with. No, I am not; as you can see by examining many other bugs where I disagreed with the design meeting's conclusion, including the last meeting. What I do not respect is when a "discussion" does not actually discuss what has been brought up for discussion.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #28) > What I do not respect is when a "discussion" does not actually discuss what > has been brought up for discussion. The discussion went not as you would have liked, yes.
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #29) > (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #28) > > What I do not respect is when a "discussion" does not actually discuss what > > has been brought up for discussion. > The discussion went not as you would have liked, yes. Again, no. And stop spamming this bug please.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #30) pls respect the work of the UX meeting. If you disagree, find a proper way to work on that, rather than reopening every issue that you have a different opinion on.
The request for enhancement was valid. However, Slide layout is already available on the Properties deck as noted. And likewise on the 'Presentation' toolbar (its 'Slide Layout'.uno:AssignLayout available to assign to any menu, toolbar or context menu the user chooses, though it should probably be added for use on Notebookbar customization). Any question regards our handling of Transitions and Animations as independent SB Decks is off topic. The resolution of this request is simply => WF to adding a new SB Deck to hold just a Slide layout content panel. Its closed.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #26) > On the other hand - why does this not apply to Slide Transitions? i.e. how > can Slide Transitions be so important that they need their own sidebar deck, > while layouts don't? They could go on a button in the presentation toolbar > as well, couldn't they? The animation and the slide transition have additional settings and preview. The commands .uno:CustomAnimation and .uno:SlideChangeWindow, that could be added to a menu or to a toolbar, do not have these settings. They open the associated deck in the sidebar. Whereas .uno:AssignLayout has itself all needed items.
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #32) I can live with this, while disagreeing with the conclusion. Thanks, Stuart.
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #32) (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #34) Thanks for your help Stuart and accepting the solution, Eyal.