We have been going a transition from vertical to horizontal tabs in some dialogs. I am ok with the transition in itself, but - in some cases, this results in what I consider to be a completely unacceptable situation: Tabs which get left out of the dialog, and can only be accessed by scrolling... which moves other tabs out of view, and places all tabs in a different vertical position. This means: * Another area of the dialog whose content is not fixed, forcing you to keep track of it. * You cannot develop "muscle memory" of how to get anywhere in the dialog - since that always depends on the tabs scroll position. * To decide where to look for something in the dialog, you can't just evaluate all of the possible tabs - you have to make a mental list of them, and fill it while scrolling, then remember it when you've scrolled all the way. * ... in both directions if you started in the middle. This is absolutely terrible. Horrid. I claim we must not allow this to continue. We need to take a decision that this never happen. That any of the alternatives is always superior to being in this situation. Those could be: * Less height for each tab header (i.e. tabs closer together). * Using a list-ish control rather than tabs. * Unifying related tabs. * Two columns of of tab headers. * Switching back to vertical tabs. Yes, I know some of these are kind of cringy. But none of them are as bad as having to scroll to releval tabs. If nothing else - the last option, of simply reverting to the old layout, is very easy to implement, and its shortcomings are far outweighed by the current situation. --- I've filed this as an LO-general bug, although for now the most prominent example is the Paragraph Style editing dialog in Writer.
Not perceiving an issue! The Style dialogs (launched from Sidebar F11 deck) come up in Vertical tabs rather than legacy horizontal. And for now you can still see some like Paragraph style in Horizontal mode (if launched from context menu). However, the vertical tab list is easily navigated. It rolls up or down with mouse scroll wheel or with cursor up/down. Wheel scroll does not open the panels so not distracting at all, while cursor up or down, or mouse click, exposes the panel. I find the Vertical tabs no more unwieldy than the Horizontal tab layout for dialog where the entire layout (upper and lower row) shifts position depending on the tab selected. -1
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1) > Not perceiving an issue! > > The Style dialogs (launched from Sidebar F11 deck) come up in Vertical tabs > rather than legacy horizontal. And for now you can still see some like > Paragraph style in Horizontal mode (if launched from context menu). > > However, the vertical tab list is easily navigated. It rolls up or down with > mouse scroll wheel or with cursor up/down. Wheel scroll does not open the > panels so not distracting at all, while cursor up or down, or mouse click, > exposes the panel. > > I find the Vertical tabs no more unwieldy than the Horizontal tab layout for > dialog where the entire layout (upper and lower row) shifts position > depending on the tab selected. > > -1 Would say though that the dialog should probably be resizable, rather than fixed as implemented. Users with issues of a cluttered UI could drag it taller to expose all the tabs.
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1) > Not perceiving an issue! > > The Style dialogs (launched from Sidebar F11 deck) come up in Vertical tabs > rather than legacy horizontal. And for now you can still see some like > Paragraph style in Horizontal mode (if launched from context menu). I think we may be using the terms vertical/horizontal in opposite ways. > However, the vertical tab list is easily navigated. The problem is the _need_ to navigate it. I described why this is a huge degradation of the UI. > I find the Vertical tabs no more unwieldy than the Horizontal tab layout for > dialog where the entire layout (upper and lower row) shifts position > depending on the tab selected. Actually, shifting is also rather bad; but at least there are only two possible states, and the distance between the positions of the tabs is relatively small. > Would say though that the dialog should probably be resizable, rather than > fixed as implemented. Even if it were resizable - no scrolling should be guaranteed, IMNSHO, with the default dialog size.
The new layout is Vertical tabs--stacked into a tab bar. Implemented as for bug 99528 The old layout was Horizontal tabs--wrapped when width didn't hold all the tab (usually two rows) so appeared as a multi-line horizontal tab bar. There definitely are some consistency issues with the new Vertical tab layouts. In Writer, all the dialogs open with fixed heights. But in Draw/Impress those that I checked all could be resized taller as needed. Also, some of the controls still open to the Horizontal tab bar, noticed mostly for those launched from the context menus. So resizable (with a default height to hold all of tab bars up to max of 800px), and made consistent across the modules--that alone should be sufficient.
VT style is supposed to have icons (similar to the hyperlink dialog), tracked in bug 163008. Plus, all dialogs needs a review for the new layout. I don't see need for another ticket => INV
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5) If: > VT style is supposed to have icons (similar to the hyperlink dialog), > tracked in bug 163008. Doesn't that just mean that a resolution of 163008 would resolve this bug? > Plus, all dialogs needs a review for the new layout. > I don't see need for another ticket => INV but this has already been released with 25.02. If we're talking about an after-the-fact review - this is one such "review": The new vertically-layed-out tabs introduce an unacceptable aspect to the UI.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #6) > but this has already been released with 25.02. We decided to keep VT on a few dialogs to keep some urgency for the topic. It would be a nice design variation if we had VT with fancy icons - people often complain about LibreOffice old-school look and feel. But at this point it is more likely that we revert the changes than fixing all issues (see also bug 165487).
Hello, I recently discovered this change, and I disapprove of it. In particular, I disapprove of: - the way the interface change was carried out; -the meager comments in the original bug (99528) to justify the implementation (I prefer it, I find it...). - While the original ticket had been open since 2016, and the importance of this change was noted, the fixes were proposed all at once, without (sufficiently) questioning the relevance of this change for all users. - I regret that at the very least this change was not treated as an experimental function, as was done when the metabar was implemented. - I regret even more that no information was given on this change, in the release notes (yet the change is not minor). - I'm even more disappointed that no indication is given of how to get back to the previous way of working, even though this is mentioned in the ticket. Finally, I totally disagree with an evolutionary strategy that would aim to copy what's being done next door, because "since that's how it's done at Microsoft, users will accept it more easily if we do the same": no. LibreOffice has nothing to be ashamed of in terms of how it works, or its interface (which is in no way "old-fashioned"). LibreOffice should be proud of what it offers, of its respect for the user and the possibilities for customization and preference it gives him. And that's exactly what's wrong with this evolution: the user is subjected to a few people who have decided in a uniform way for him, instead of offering a modification as an option. What's more, this change of display is not applied to all dialog boxes, so it's unfinished and incomprehensible to an "end" user who doesn't know how a feature matures. Having clarified these points, I'd like to shed some light on the root of the problem. Each user operates in his own way, according to his needs, his habits, his tools and his screens. For some users, the in-line tabs are unsatisfactory (perhaps things could be reworked, without "throwing away" these in-line tabs), for others the display of a vertical menu is destabilizing. And if one of us finds that we get used to it in 2-3 days, that's a hazardous generalization. Any UX/UI subject should at least take into account the cognitive functions of each individual. To sum up: just because it's good for me, I'm used to it, doesn't mean it's the same for my neighbor. It seems to me that a minimum of inclusion isn't orthogonal with LibreOffice's values. There are other programs (I'm thinking of VLC, for example) that have evolved the way they present their settings. The difference is that VLC doesn't have such a wide variety of functions and dialog boxes. And when this change was made (a long time ago now), there was only a checkbox to return to the old display. The fact that this change of display is not uniform for all dialog boxes doesn't help matters, and shows that the answer would have deserved a little more work, without a backtrack, a switch to experimental function for example. In any case, with this vertical display, I agree with the subject of this ticket: the scroll bar is not sufficiently visible, nor are the "chevrons" (top and bottom). I think a clearer separation of menu items would be useful, but for all the reasons given above, not everyone agrees. I understand that this is an issue that the UX team needs to think about before improving the strategy (whatever the final decision may be). The urgent thing is to provide the user with information in the release notes, and, if possible (I haven't found it) to specify how to restore the display of inline tabs in the dialog boxes concerned. I usually devote more time to helping French-speaking users on the dedicated list than to participating in bug reports, but the method displeases me too much for me not to "do my bit". ==================================== original French version ==================================== Bonjour j'ai découvert il y a peu ce changement, et je le désapprouve. Particulièrement je désapprouve : - la façon dont le changement d'interface a été réalisée - les maigres commentaires dans le bug d'origine pour justifier de la mise en place (moi je préfère, moi je trouve...). Alors que le ticket d'origine était ouvert depuis 2016, que l'importance de ce changement était noté, les fix ont été proposés d'un coup, sans s'interroger (suffisament) sur la pertinence de ce changement pour tous les utilisateurs - Je regrette qu'à minima ce changement n'ait pas été traité comme une fonction expérimentale, comme cela a été fait lors de la mise en place de la metabarre. - Je regrette encore plus qu'aucune information ne soit donnée sur ce changement, dans les notes de version (pourtant le changement n'est pas mineur). - Je regrette encore plus qu'aucune indication ne soit donnée pour retrouver le fonctionnement précédent alors que cela est évoqué dans le ticket. Enfin, je suis en total désaccord avec une stratégie d'évolution qui viserait à copier ce qui se fait chez le voisin, parce que "comme ça se passe comme ça chez Microsoft, les utilisateurs accepteront plus facilement si l'on fait pareil" : non. LibreOffice n'a pas à rougir de son fonctionnement, de son interface (qui n'est en rien "vieillotte"). LibreOffice doit être fier de ce qu'il propose, de son respect de l'utilisateur et des possibilités de personnalisations et de préférence qu'il lui donne. Et c'est bien ce qui ne va pas avec cette évolution : l'utilisateur est soumis à quelques personnes qui ont décidé de façon uniforme pour lui au lieu de proposer une modification en option. Par ailleurs ce changement d'affichage n'est pas appliqué à toutes les boites de dialogue, c'est donc inabouti et incompréhensible pour un utilisateur "final" qui ne connait pas le processus de maturation d'une fonctionalité. Ces points précisés, je souhaite apporter mon éclairage sur le fond du problème. Chaque utilisateur fonctionne a sa façon selon ses besoins, ses habitudes, ses outils, ses écrans. Pour certains utilisateurs, les onglets en lignes sont insatisfaisants (peut être que des choses pouvaient être retravaillées, sans "jeter" ces onglets en ligne), pour d'autres l'affichage d'un menu vertical est déstabilisant. Et si l'un de nous trouve que l'on s'y fait en 2-3 jours, c'est une généralisation hasardeuse. Tout sujet UX/UI devrait intégrer un minimum les fonctionnements cognitifs des uns et des autres. Pour certains l'adaptation sera rapide, pour d'autres l'adaptation forcée constituera une panique réelle. Pour résumer : ce n'est pas parce que pour moi c'est bien, je m'y fait, que c'est la même chose pour mon voisin. Il me semble qu'un minimum d'inclusion ce n'est pas orthogonal avec les valeurs de LibreOffice. Il y a d'autres logiciels (j'ai pensé à VLC par exemple) qui ont fait évoluer la présentation de leur paramétrage. La différence c'est que VLC n'a pas une telle variété de fonctionnalités et de boites de dialogues. Et que, quand ce changement est intervenu (il y a lo ngtemps maintenant), il n'y avait qu'une case à cocher pour retrouver l'ancien affichage. Le fait que ce changement d'affichage ne soit pas uniforme pour toutes les boites de dialogue n'arrange rien, et montre bien que la réponse aurait mérité un peu plus de travail, sans un retour arrière, un passage en fonction expérimentale par exemple. Vraiment, ce qui a été fait lors de la mise en place des interfaces utilisateurs multiples (dont meta-barres) me semble un bon compromis. Dans tous les cas, avec cet affichage vertical, je rejoins le sujet de ce ticket la barre de défilement n'est pas suffisament visible, les "chevrons" (haut et bas) non plus. Une séparation plus évidente des éléments du menu m'apparait utile, mais pour toutes les raisons évoquées précédemment, cela n'est pas forcément l'avis de tous. Je comprends que le sujet mérite réflexion de l'équipe UX notamment avant d'améliorer la stratégie (quelle qu'en soit la décision finale). L'urgence est d'apporter à l'utilisateur dans les notes de versions, et, si cela est possible (je n'ai pas trouvé) de préciser comment retrouver l'affichage des onglets en ligne dans les boites de dialogue concernées. habituellement je consacre plus de temps à aider les utilisateurs francophones sur la liste dédiée qu'à participer aux déclarations de bugs, mais la méthode me déplait trop pour que je n'apporte pas "ma pierre"
(In reply to ocleyr2lalune from comment #8) Thanks for your supportive comment (I mean, supportive of my perspective...) - but I think I need to point out that this bug is about a specific aspect of the change - some of the tabs being out-of-view. Perhaps you should post the comment on the meta-bug for "vertical" tabs, or on the bug where the patches were posted etc.
Yes, I fully agree with V Stuart Foote's comments in Comment 1, Comment 2, and Comment 4: - Need more Vertical Tabs!!! - Allow Scrolling = Good! - Allow Resizing = Good! - Oddly, only these Writer menu's sizes seem to be hardcoded, like Comment 4 noted. - Helpful for menus that aren't quite-yet-completed in design too. - See Bug #161492. - A few labels accidentally have a few letters "going off the screen" now, like: - Right-Click > Edit Style - "Text Flow" tab -> "Split Options". I think the list potentially "being too tall" is a non-problem, especially if it gets scrolling enhancement #165989. Bug #165989 also allows us to split out even MORE tabs in the future, like pulling "Hyphenation" out of "Text Flow". - - - Instead of stuff being cut off vertically... What I currently see as a serious issue is: - "Tabs" with text cut off *horizontally*. - The tab column's width is non-stretchy. This especially becomes a problem on computers set with HUGE TEXT SIZE. STEPS-TO-REPRODUCE 1. In Windows OS: - Open Start Menu. - Search "Text Size" setting. - Set "Text Size" -> 200%. 2. Open LibreOffice Writer. 3. Go to any dialog with Vertical Tabs. BUG: See only a few letters of the "tab name" appears before chopping off and turning into an ellipsis. Expected these to appear fully: - Indents & Spacing - Alignment Actual: - Indents ... - Alignm... with the rest of the tab names "cut off". I assume this is even worse in some localizations over others. (I first noticed this issue while working on an 80-year-old grandma's laptop. It was a very old laptop: low resolution plus ENORMOUS FONT SIZES set by the OS. But this issue happens on a huge 4K monitor too.) Note: Old horizontal tabs, the labels correctly grew ENORMOUS along with all the other text. - - - I agree with ocleyr2lalune's input: > this change of display is not applied to all dialog boxes, so it's unfinished and incomprehensible to an "end" user who doesn't know how a feature matures. Yes, it did currently feel it was rushed and a little half-baked. I was very excited Vertical Tabs finally made it, but could've used a bit more refinement before mass public release. Now that they're here though, let's try to incrementally (and quickly) move them in the right direction. Once we get passed this huge speed bump, refining a few of these initial menus, I think it'll be a lot smoother sailing after that. Note: I wrote a tiny bit about that in this comment on the LO subreddit: - "Plans for a total UI/UX redesign?" - https://old.reddit.com/r/libreoffice/comments/1k2h0lr/plans_for_a_total_uiux_redesign/mo14ts6/
(In reply to Tex2002ans from comment #10) > I think the list potentially "being too tall" is a non-problem, especially > if it gets scrolling enhancement #165989. It is a seriously usability problem. So serious, that if it is decided not to fix it - we should revert the entire change from "horizontal" to "vertical" tabs. Dialogs where one has to scroll to get to parts of the dialog are annoying and broken.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #11) > (In reply to Tex2002ans from comment #10) > > I think the list potentially "being too tall" is a non-problem, especially > > if it gets scrolling enhancement #165989. > > It is a seriously usability problem. So serious, that if it is decided not > to fix it - we should revert the entire change from "horizontal" to > "vertical" tabs. Dialogs where one has to scroll to get to parts of the > dialog are annoying and broken. Have to disagree there, its a configuration screen. Swipe scroll is pretty standard UI and offers reasonable UX. Present LO implementation can be improved, and consistency cross platforms needs to be there for documentation. UX is no worse than legacy horizontal tab bar with wrapping into multiple rows.