Should B&N bar also appear automatically (i.e., context-sensitive) with unnumbered headings (where headings are selected in Tools > Chapter Numbering)? At present, the toolbar is not shown automatically, even though the .unos on that bar also work in this case?
imo, it would be a "good" thing, because over half of the possibilities offered by the default settings for the bar (i.e., Promote/Demote and Move up/down commands) are functional and useful for headings. (and some of the non-visible commands are also useful).
Will ask NeedsUXEval -
I support the request to show the B&N toolbar for PS with an outline level other than Text Body.
The statusbar has an item which brings you to the B&N dialog but promotion/demotion is only available at the Navigator (besides Format > Lists menu and B&N toolbar; the Notebookbars may contain the commands).
Any concerns, Mike?
See also bug 38850 requesting a permanently visible toolbar. One decision opposes the other. Toolbars are contextual unless explicitly enabled, which works for the B&N toolbar until some numbered heading is focused making the TB disappear on leave.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> I support the request to show the B&N toolbar for PS with an outline level
> other than Text Body.
Then please rename the toolbar to include the "outline" word: bullets and numbering is completely unrelated to outline. You may use "Lists and Outline" or somesuch?
Neutral about name change (was not in OP) – though agree that "Outline and List" bar would better signal the toolbar’s functionality, and better match the relevant Para and PS dialogs tabs.
Note implication with name change: at least 36 help pages would need updating (plus triggering need for retranslations).
Assume that Format > Bullets and Numbering (.uno:OutlineBullet) would remain with ”Bullets and Numbering” (which is another advantage with a toolbar name change, because it would disambiguate the Bullets and Numbering DF dialog (which chooses list formats) from the (mostly) "level" and "order" functions of the "Outline and List" bar).
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #3)
> Neutral about name change (was not in OP)
Please note that name change is *essential* for the OP: if you have "Bullet and Numbering" toolbar, then it *must not* appear when no bullets or numbering is involved.
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #4)
> Please note that name change is *essential* for the OP
Ok. So a next logical step would be to ask:
What about making two separate context-sensitive toolbars -- one for "Chapter Headings" and one for "Lists"?
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #5)
> What about making two separate context-sensitive toolbars -- one for
> "Chapter Headings" and one for "Lists"?
It could be done; however, I believe it would be redundant (having very similar set of controls); and also confusing (to the point when users will be upset that they customized the toolbar appearing on lists, and then it shows without customizations when in unnumbered headings (they would fail to see that these are different toolbars); or that two "identical" toolbars pop up sometimes - when in numbered headings, both toolbar for lists and toolbar for outlines will appear, and many people already frown upon toolbar popups).
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #6)
> It could be done; however,
So...exploring the idea a little further...
> or that two "identical" toolbars pop
> up sometimes - when in numbered headings, both toolbar for lists and toolbar
> for outlines will appear, and many people already frown upon toolbar popups).
Oh! That was not my idea. IIUC -- headings and lists (at least conceptually) should be treated differently so, when ...
- cursor in Chapter Heading (numbered or unnumbered), then only "Outline" (or "Heading") toolbar pops up.
- cursor in List (DF or List Style): - only "List" toolbar pops up.
AFAICT -- no need to modify content of Bullet and Numbering toolbar (including its name, which would avoid having to update the help pages)
And for a new Headings bar (starting with current B&N default)
a. Can remove .uno:OutlineBullet (and the hidden uno:DefaultBullet, .uno:DefaultNumbering, .uno:SetOutline)
(isn't is a problem or at least undesired to use these DF controls on Headings?)
b. Could also remove .uno:InsertNeutralParagraph and .uno:ContinueNumbering
(which gives a leaner toolbar with no greyed out icons)
c. Can use TargetURL so that different names/tooltips can be given to "arrows" that promote/demote, and move up and down for Headings and for Lists (that was sort of an intent in bug 144493, but it was not fully possible, bug 147107)
d. Is there a .uno for Tools > Chapter Numbering? That could appropriately
be added to a Heading bar.
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #7)
No strong opinion on this ... except one: please stop using "headings" here. There *already* exists a confusion introduced by "outline" and "chapter" meaning the same (in some contexts; and different things in some other contexts: cf. "chapter numbering" renamed from "outline numbering", which made "chapter equal to outline"; while "chapter" means some more narrow thing in ToC dialog, where "Create Index or Table of Contents For" has a "Chapter" choice).
So use of *Headings* as another wrong and confusing synonym here is no-go. Headings are already used in this way in Navigator, giving even more headaches.
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #8)
> No strong opinion on this ...
Aww..that is disappointing. I was sure that at least you would like the idea of removing the offer to apply DF numbering to Heading N paragraphs in an outline bar.
> except one: please stop using "headings" here.
No problem. See comment 3 ("neutral about name change").
I appreciate that there is much confusion/debate about this terminology -- and I am not trying to participate in that discussion -- or to promote particular terminology.
But I needed to use some words to communicate about the functionality. Sorry if my "lay" terms were a source of distress. But today you have given some technical definitions, which are fine with me -- so from bug 141452 comment #24:
>* Heading is a paragraph having an outline level other than "Text Body".
That was also my understanding. And that was also my intended meaning of "heading" here. Concretely, whenever the cursor is in a paragraph with outline level other than Text Body, then a special toolbar (not Bullets and Numbering) should appear.
But after some experiments and reflection, I now see/believe that it only makes sense for a context-sensitive toolbar to appear when the cursor is placed in a Heading N PS paragraph – for the primary reason that it is not possible to change the outline level of Heading paragraphs that are non-Heading N (using toolbar/menu commands). (which by luck was also the OP).
With that additional condition (only show context-sensitive toolbar for Heading N PS), then it makes a lot of sense to call a context-sensitive toolbar for “Outline” (which is also the name that the Organizer uses to show “List Style” for Heading N PS).
Let's do it. But making it a duplicate of bug 38850.
*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 38850 ***
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from bug 38850 comment #15)
> we should auto-show the list/outline toolbar more often
+1 that is the OP and the main point.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from bug 38850 comment #17)
> The toolbar offers Promote/Demote, Move up/down, and various list
> attributes. Makes no sense to separate one from the other.
I understand, from a technical point of view, that it seems superfluous, and would agree that it probably makes little difference for Eve users.
But just to lay out some conceptual reasons for suggesting their separation, which were motivated by an interest in making the tools more accessible to beginners (which includes having understandable help pages), and to those who are trying to learn/understand/use appropriately list level and outline level:
1. List level and Outline level are different concepts. Better to have separate toolbars for each one.
2. Some of the list toolbar items are irrelevant for paragraphs with outline level. Gives a simpler, slimmer toolbar for Outline.
3. Makes it easier to write help pages, where, right now, it is necessary to explain (for example) Promote (and other commands) in relation to both list level and outline level on the same help page.
4. Users are encouraged to use Tools > Chapter Numbering in relation to numbering outline paragraphs, so why mix the DF list commands into an Outline bar?
5. When toolbars are undocked, they have a title, that highlights if one is working with list or outline.
I am not trying to sell anything here....just an exploration that follows from the OP.
The reason why it was named B&N is that all commands apply to lists. Which is not different for lists with or without outline level. Or what command wouldn't be available in the two scenarios?
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12)
> what command wouldn't be available in the two scenarios?
In relation to actual use case....
Most of my documents have paragraphs with outline level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, usually with Heading N PS (both so that Load Styles from Templates can be used to change formatting of the Heading N PS, and to automatically get PS changes with outline level changes when using Tab/Shift+Tab (or Demote/Promote from menu, if PS is not listed in Tools > Chapter Number) [I guess by normally using Heading N, I am implicitly using that mapping of PS and level from Tools > Chapter Numbering, even if I rarely use numbers in that dialog, which is what motivated OP].
I will reply to your question in relation to that (meaningful use) case – but I think the following analysis also applies to cases with custom PS with outline levels, and when Tools > Chapter Numbering is used with numbering.
If OP was realized, then B&N bar would pop up when cursor is in a para with Heading N PS.
Afaict .uno:InsertNeutralParagraph, .uno:ContinueNumbering would always be meaningless in relation to these outline paragraphs. (Because there was no list formatting, so no need to insert a non-list formatted para, and why would I use “Add to List” if I wanted to apply a PS with an outline level? just use H1, H2, H3 from Formatting (Styles) menubar and Tab to shift level down if needed.)
[...not trying to make my use case universal, but I could not imagine other use cases that would need these commands in relation to outline paragraphs]
Now…if I wanted to have numbering (or bullets) on these paragraphs with outline levels (in the use case, and using professional language, such paras are usually called “headings”), then wouldn’t Tools > Chapter Numbering be the preferred method for numbering?
If that is the preferred method, then wouldn’t .uno:OutlineBullet be inappropriate (as well as the currently hidden uno:DefaultBullet, .uno:DefaultNumbering, .uno:SetOutline)?
(of course still possible to use those DF commands from menu, but for those who know, and for those who don’t know, then these commands should not be relevant to working with paras with outline levels, right?).
Maybe that is enough to start…meanwhile..what would be a use case where you would use both outline level and list level for list paragraphs?
And if they existed, then how would you use the current B&N bar to change outline level of one of these paragraphs?
In such cases, promote/demote operates on the “list level”, not “outline level”