The current default set of bullet characters used in the toolbar split button and dialog need to be improved. Below are lists from various sources. Current: bullet, large bullet, large diamond, large square, large right arrow with stem, right arrow half black & white, X mark, check HTML[1]: bullet, bullet with white fill, square (Wingding U+F0A7) MS Word 2010: bullet, circle (bullet with white fill), square, image, black diamond minus white X, arrow half black & white, check WordPerfect X7: bullet, large bullet, diamond, square, triangle (right arrow), empty checkbox, shadowed empty checkbox, checkmark, star, smiley face TextEdit (Mac): bullet, bullet with white fill, square, square with white fill, dash, check, diamond iWork Pages: bullet, 5-point star, 8-point star, 4-point star, 4-leaf clover, 4-piece diamond, check, arrow with stem, dash, small triangle pointing right, bullet with a stroke [1] https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_lists.asp
This list along with the unicode values for these bullets as well as images are available in this google doc. https://docs.google.com/document/d/16-6zkZl5LiICnUILhv1CfIHIdyQFyTJKp7XGST5zq5U/edit#bookmark=id.fjy2txljed77
Isn't this a dup of bug 106507?
@Jay, * Agree some change to that list are needed, and perhaps expand in the UI as for bug 106507 current list of bullets is here: http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/svx/source/dialog/svxbmpnumvalueset.cxx#68 But, we are limited to what we provide hardcoded to OpenSymbol; and that font will likely need additional glyphs and movement of glyphs from PUA to correct Unicode codepoint. For example: BLACK DIAMOND SUIT U+e00c -> U+2666 BLACK SQUARE U+e00a -> U+25a0
I'm gathering all the information on this issue in this google drive folder https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6qJrVIa0SAlMTR1ZjhaQVNxVk0 and working on the new list in this google spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-ZnF1nkNXzbwb9rjCxztfxnXYAv5bK9QSsyTklOdqmI/edit?usp=sharing (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #3) > Agree some change to that list are needed, and perhaps expand in the UI as > for bug 106507 I think bug 106507 can be closed as a duplicate of this. > But, we are limited to what we provide hardcoded to OpenSymbol; and that > font will likely need additional glyphs and movement of glyphs from PUA to > correct Unicode codepoint. Yep that would need to be done. Who is maintainer of OpenSymbol? Khaled: Would that happen to be you. :D > For example: > BLACK DIAMOND SUIT U+e00c -> U+2666 U+E00C should go into U+25C6 (BLACK DIAMOND) U+E002 should go into U+2666 > BLACK SQUARE U+e00a -> U+25a0 yep
I only touch OpenSymbol when I really really have to.
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #5) > I only touch OpenSymbol when I really really have to. So does that mean you are the maintainer? Would moving existing glyphs from one unicode position to another position be a difficult thing to do?
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #6) > (In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #5) > > I only touch OpenSymbol when I really really have to. > > So does that mean you are the maintainer? Would moving existing glyphs from > one unicode position to another position be a difficult thing to do? No to both questions, but be aware that there is code somewhere that depends on the exact code points in the font and will have to be fixed first.
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #7) > No to both questions, but be aware that there is code somewhere that depends > on the exact code points in the font and will have to be fixed first. So any idea how to get in touch with the maintainer? Well we could always copy the glyphs to the new location and not disturb the other code. ;D
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #8) > (In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #7) > > No to both questions, but be aware that there is code somewhere that depends > > on the exact code points in the font and will have to be fixed first. > > So any idea how to get in touch with the maintainer? I have no idea who he is.
@Jay, we can change what we need to for OpenSymbol. Currently we are at v102.10 with 1055 glyphs, Mike K. did the last major batch of changes. But as Khaled mentions we have to be mindful of spots in the UI that call glyphs from OpenSymbol by PUA codepoint. So aside for bullets as here, IMHO OpenSymbol needs rework to ween ourselves from the PUA use in OpenSymbol to improve font fallback and for better use when substituting fonts in the LO UI.
Hi, referring to bug 106507 on "4 more default bullet types", there was kind of an agreement on new dash bullet types. I take some info from comment 8 in that bug by Yousuf: There were three dash types discused: - (U+2013) "Halbgeviertstrich" (in English: en dash / en rule) ‐ (U+2010) "Divis" (in English: hyphen) // TextEdit and iWork Pages have a dash preset, though Pages uses U+2D (which IMHO looks the same like U+2010) Indeed, it would be helpful to have two good dash bullet types. I personally prefer the U+2013, as it is a typographic standard in Germany (and other West European countries?) plus one shorter dash type, like U+2010 or U+2D
*** Bug 110455 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
(In reply to Susan Cragin from bug 110455) > It would be nice to have an empty square box as an option. I am a teacher > and print out lists that my students check off on paper copies. > In addition, the solid boxes (and the circle) take up too much toner so I > never use them anyway. I support this idea.
I'd just like to add a vote for this, and for empty squares. In Google Docs, I can put in an empty square and then right-mouse and change that one to a check mark. Great for to-do lists. An empty box is great for other lists, especially the paper ones I pass out to my students. Half of them don't bring computers to class, and I am always having them fill out forms. (You'd be surprised at what community college students don't have!) Also, when students study for classes, they typically now type their class notes, then print them out and study from them by highlighting them and scribbling all over them. And so there's a screen / paper thing going on there, too. Good for empty boyes And I'd like to repeat my comment that we should avoid anything that uses up too much toner, or have options that don't. I never use solid boxes partly for this reason. If you are developing other list markers, may I suggest something that means a question? Students often make lists of questions. Or points to remember ! Maybe you could have fat question marks and exclamation points.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #13) > I support this idea. I'm assuming this is U+25A1 and according to the google spreadsheet, you listed it as 'No' (row 19). :D (In reply to Susan Cragin from comment #14) > And I'd like to repeat my comment that we should avoid anything that uses up > too much toner, or have options that don't. I never use solid boxes partly > for this reason. All bullets are small so they dont take up much toner and ultimately its the user's choice of what bullet they prefer to use. > If you are developing other list markers, may I suggest something that means > a question? Students often make lists of questions. Or points to remember ! > Maybe you could have fat question marks and exclamation points. We are gathering a list of commonly used ones to use as defaults.
Hi, I would like to ask what the current status is with regard to the "new default set of bullet characters"? I also would like to ask how to transfer information from bug 106507 to here, because this bug here is more comprehensive. In that bug (here short summary), I had suggested to add following (they exist in OpenSymbol): – (U+2013) (EN DASH, in German: "Halbgeviertstrich") ‐ (U+2010) "Divis" (in English: hyphen) (not in OpenSymbol; thus Jay refers to U+2D (HYPHEN-MINUS), which is similar but not the same) ▸ (U+25B8) (BLACK RIGHT-POINTING SMALL TRIANGLE) → (U+2192) (RIGHTWARDS ARROW) In the discussion to that bug, Heiko (and Jay) were particularly in favor of the addition of EN DASH (Halbgeviertstrich), since it contributes to the typographical standardization (it is a typographic standard (e.g. in Germany)).
*** Bug 131160 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 157025 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Samuel Mehrbrodt committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/f944648e0f5d52605a267ed50bba4bfc035aecc6 tdf#108697 Allow modifying default bullet selection It will be available in 24.8.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Recent discussion on commit [1] for some rework of the Bullet quick select from March 2024 With refactoring of the default Bullet quick select button and now residing in common.xcs [2] and more easily optimized, suggest a change from current list: • U+2022 (tt. solid small circular bullets) ● U+25cf (tt. solid large circular bullets) U+e00c (tt. solid diamond bullets) //OpenSymbol PUA U_e00a (tt. solid large square bullets) //OpenSymbol PUA ➔ U+2794 (tt. right pointing arrow bullets filled out) ➢ U+27a2 (tt. right pointing arrow bullets) ✗ U+2717 (tt. cross mark bullets) ✔ U+2714 (tt. checkmark bullets) To be replaced with this set of glyphs, w/tt changes: top row • U+2022 (tt. solid small circular bullets) ● U+25cf (tt. solid large circular bullets) ○ U+25cb (tt. unfilled circular bullets) □ U+25a1 (tt. unfilled square/checkbox bullets) bottom row ► U+25ba (tt. solid right pointer bullets) → U+2192 (tt. right pointing arrow bullets) - U+002d (tt. typographic hyphen bullets) – U+2013 (tt. en-dash bullets) These represent the most common past requests for changes to the default set of Bullet choices from OpenSymbol font, while dropping the cross and checkmark bullets. The quick select *could* be expanded beyond its current 8 "preview thumbnails" or more completely refactored. But not a priority as it is trivial to use the 'Bullets and Numbering' customize for 'Bullets' 1-10 levels and save to template for reuse. This change to the default offering will benefit those users who have to go the customize/template route currently. @Samuel, * -- with https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/163735, dropping the RID_SVXSTR_BULLET_DESCRIPTION_[0-7] where are those tool tips coming from? They'd need a tweak as well... -=ref-= [1] https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/163735/3/officecfg/registry/schema/org/openoffice/Office/Common.xcs#3341 [2] https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/officecfg/registry/schema/org/openoffice/Office/Common.xcs?r=fe66cf8c#3330
My proposal based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_(typography) * U+2022 • BULLET (•, •) * U+2023 ‣ TRIANGULAR BULLET * U+2043 ⁃ HYPHEN BULLET (⁃) U+204C ⁌ BLACK LEFTWARDS BULLET U+204D ⁍ BLACK RIGHTWARDS BULLET U+2219 ∙ BULLET OPERATOR for use in mathematical notation primarily U+25CB ○ WHITE CIRCLE (○) U+25CF ● BLACK CIRCLE U+25D8 ◘ INVERSE BULLET * U+25E6 ◦ WHITE BULLET U+2619 ☙ REVERSED ROTATED FLORAL HEART BULLET; see Fleuron (typography) U+2765 ❥ ROTATED HEAVY BLACK HEART BULLET * U+2767 ❧ ROTATED FLORAL HEART BULLET; see Fleuron (typography) U+29BE ⦾ CIRCLED WHITE BULLET (⦾) U+29BF ⦿ CIRCLED BULLET (⦿) * U+25C9 ◉ FISHEYE used in Japan as a bullet, and called tainome. plus * U+1F599 🖙 Sideways White Right Pointing Index * U+2794 ➔ Heavy Wide-Headed Rightwards Arrow
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #21) > My proposal based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_(typography) > ... Was looking for simplicity in implementation. And that set of bullet glyphs would require modification to our bundled OpenSymbol to add missing glyph coverage, or possibly select glyphs from the other LO bundled fonts, e.g. 'DejaVu Sans Mono'--which *is* now feasible as the font is no longer fixed as refactored. Also, the 4x2 layout of the thumb preview buttons on the quick view split button would need to be reworked--resize/shape the preview samples or eliminate the 4x2 quick select for a listbox. The typographic hyphen "-" U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS was only bcz OpenSymbol does not cover it. The "‐" U+2010 HYPHEN would be fine if we move outside OpenSymbol. And while not on your list--we've have had numerous community requests to use the large White Square/large White Circle as bullets to allow a checkbox effect (user resizable via customize). Since we'd be expanding beyond 8 slots, should include those as well.
(In reply to Susan Cragin from comment #14) > I'd just like to add a vote for this, and for empty squares. > In Google Docs, I can put in an empty square and then right-mouse and change > that one to a check mark. Great for to-do lists. > An empty box is great for other lists, especially the paper ones I pass out > to my students. Half of them don't bring computers to class, and I am always > having them fill out forms. (You'd be surprised at what community college > students don't have!) > Also, when students study for classes, they typically now type their class > notes, then print them out and study from them by highlighting them and > scribbling all over them. And so there's a screen / paper thing going on > there, too. Good for empty boyes This is still my viewpoint. Empty boxes / squares are essential for teachers. And they are also liked very much by the bujo ("bullet journal") contingent.
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #22) > The typographic hyphen "-" U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS was only bcz OpenSymbol does > not cover it. The "‐" U+2010 HYPHEN would be fine if we move outside > OpenSymbol. True, most of the glyphs in my comment 21 are not covered by OpenSymbol. However, why do we need a hyphen (U+002D) and the EN-dash (U+2013)? We could add the left-ward pointing arrow (U+2190) instead of the simple hyphen for the RTL folks. And a small and big circular bullet seems to be a bit redundant. Perhaps replace U+2022 with the hand-pointer (U+E205)?
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #24) > (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #22) > > The typographic hyphen "-" U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS was only bcz OpenSymbol does > > not cover it. The "‐" U+2010 HYPHEN would be fine if we move outside > > OpenSymbol. > True, most of the glyphs in my comment 21 are not covered by OpenSymbol. > However, why do we need a hyphen (U+002D) and the EN-dash (U+2013)? We could > add the left-ward pointing arrow (U+2190) instead of the simple hyphen for > the RTL folks. > IIRC there have been statements that the hyphen/en-dash was an *expected* stylistic bullet format in some EU locales. I know it was requested. > And a small and big circular bullet seems to be a bit redundant. Perhaps > replace U+2022 with the hand-pointer (U+E205)? No can do, U+E205 is a PUA glyph, so would be the glyph at U+261E. Also should reverse U+261C for bullet lists in RTL locales But I do think there is some slot sequence of the bullets to consider when used in 1-10 level lists/outlines. Why I'd thought to leave the small/large alone. And why the tooltips for each quick pick slot also will need to be adjusted (couldn't find them in source though).
Obviously comment 20 is well thought-out.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #26) > Obviously comment 20 is well thought-out. So, are we good for Samuel to add just the simpler set of changes? As still open on gerrit [1], ending with this set of glyphs in the slots, w/tt changes to the quick pick buttons: top row • U+2022 (tt. solid small circular bullets) ● U+25cf (tt. solid large circular bullets) ○ U+25cb (tt. unfilled circular bullets) □ U+25a1 (tt. unfilled square/checkbox bullets) bottom row ► U+25ba (tt. solid right pointer bullets) → U+2192 (tt. right pointing arrow bullets) - U+002d (tt. typographic hyphen bullets) – U+2013 (tt. en-dash bullets) [1] https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/163735
@Hieko, still have comment 27 open to refine the default set of bullets. https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/163735 as now located in common.xcs rather than hardcoded. These are for the default bullets shown on the 'Bullet Library' split button customize dialog. But customizable as for bug 69724 and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/167660
Heiko Tietze committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/b8368ad96e779196f7fdaa4dfd5e26a51e1bd829 Resolves tdf#108697 - Update default bullets It will be available in 25.2.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Unfortunately, the commit in comment 29 didn't give any rational for the changes. It exactly implements the suggestion from comment 20 (which is also comment 27). non-standard PUA characters obviously needed to be replaced. non-filled choices were preferred. [comment 13/14, bug 110455] There was a strong desire for using a regular dash and an EN-dash [bug 157025, comment 11, comment 16], so I assume that since something needed to be replaced, the checkmark and X-mark were deemed most replaceable. In looking through this bug report I couldn't find any reference to why U+2794 and U+27a2 are bad and why U+25ba and U+2192 are better. [Actually, bug 106507 comment 1 requested u+25bb, not u+25ba!]
(In reply to Justin L from comment #30) > Unfortunately, the commit in comment 29 didn't give any rational for the > changes. It followed the accepted resolution in the linked BZ, why would it need more rational than that? > > It exactly implements the suggestion from comment 20 (which is also comment > 27). > > non-standard PUA characters obviously needed to be replaced. > non-filled choices were preferred. [comment 13/14, bug 110455] > Yes, no doubt. > There was a strong desire for using a regular dash and an EN-dash [bug > 157025, comment 11, comment 16], so I assume that since something needed to > be replaced, the checkmark and X-mark were deemed most replaceable. > > In looking through this bug report I couldn't find any reference to why > U+2794 and U+27a2 are bad and why U+25ba and U+2192 are better. [Actually, > bug 106507 comment 1 requested u+25bb, not u+25ba!] The U+25BB is the WHITE RIGHT-POINTING POINTER, U+25BA the BLACK/filled pointer, it fit better with the following U+2192 RIGHTWARDS ARROW to do indent levels with bullets. Given users can now set their own bullet to modify the defaults OpenSymbol U+2794, U+27A2 are out of scale, while U+2717, U+2714 are cartoonish so no great loss to replace. The U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS is a compromise, someone needs to add a U+2010 and U+2012 to OpenSymbol, meanwhile the U+002D paired with the U+2013 EN DASH moves things along. Honestly come on, this ticket has been sitting in queue for months with exactly that "finalized" list and needing movement following Samuel's https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/163735 moving the default list of bullets to common.xcs Has been ample opportunity to comment before now with adjustments or even to roll it yourself as you'd seen fit, "devs decide" and all. Personally, I'd still like to expand the 'Unordered' tab of the Bullets and Numbering dialog by another row to include the Unordered List toggle split button. For now as committed moves UX along within limits of the current UI dialog/splitbutton.
Created attachment 196754 [details] revised bullet list as commited