Bug 148485 - four options missing in "Position > Vertical > to" section for Position and Size tab for Shape
Summary: four options missing in "Position > Vertical > to" section for Position and S...
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Documentation (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
7.4.0.0 alpha0+
Hardware: All All
: medium normal
Assignee: sdc.blanco
URL:
Whiteboard: target:7.4.0
Keywords:
Depends on: 148519 148591
Blocks: HelpGaps-NewFeatures
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2022-04-09 15:32 UTC by sdc.blanco
Modified: 2022-05-02 22:56 UTC (History)
3 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
Better version (without bottom clipped off) of attachment (179.14 KB, image/png)
2022-04-13 10:35 UTC, sdc.blanco
Details
areas on a page commented (only vertical) (21.10 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2022-04-13 12:14 UTC, Regina Henschel
Details
areas for a frame commented (only vertical) (43.04 KB, application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text)
2022-04-13 12:34 UTC, Regina Henschel
Details
Help description (59.45 KB, image/png)
2022-04-22 22:40 UTC, sdc.blanco
Details
Revised version of proposal, without redundancy (43.12 KB, image/png)
2022-04-22 23:00 UTC, sdc.blanco
Details
Draft help page for "to" control for Vertical in Position section (302.56 KB, image/png)
2022-05-01 18:33 UTC, sdc.blanco
Details

Note You need to log in before you can comment on or make changes to this bug.
Description sdc.blanco 2022-04-09 15:32:52 UTC
The following three options are missing in [1] under the "Position > Vertical > to" section 

Page text area bottom
Page text area top
Frame text area

 [1] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.4/en-US/text/shared/01/05230100.html?System=WIN&DbPAR=WRITER
Comment 1 Xisco Faulí 2022-04-11 09:21:46 UTC
Moving to NEW
Comment 2 sdc.blanco 2022-04-11 15:01:47 UTC
And "Margin" is missing when anchor is "To frame"
Comment 3 sdc.blanco 2022-04-13 08:57:22 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 4 sdc.blanco 2022-04-13 10:35:11 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 5 Regina Henschel 2022-04-13 12:14:00 UTC
Created attachment 179520 [details]
areas on a page commented (only vertical)

I have commented the areas of a page.

Bug 135720 and bug 103611 and the bugs mentioned there in 'see also' are related to the implementation.
Comment 6 Regina Henschel 2022-04-13 12:34:36 UTC
Created attachment 179523 [details]
areas for a frame commented (only vertical)
Comment 7 sdc.blanco 2022-04-13 19:30:25 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 8 Regina Henschel 2022-04-13 20:49:02 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 9 sdc.blanco 2022-04-14 01:47:05 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 10 Regina Henschel 2022-04-14 09:36:18 UTC
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #9)
> @Regina - sorry to bother you again -- but I believe that these labels 
> 
> Page text area bottom
> Page text area top
> 
> are problematic.

Yes, they are problematic.
  
> 
> They can be misinterpreted to refer to the "top" of the Page text area.
> Seems better (more accurate, more descriptive) to call it:  
>   "Above page text area" (and "Below page text area").

I agree with you, that would be better. Full text in the help could then be "page region above page text area". The term "margin" instead of "page region" is not suitable, because it has a special technical meaning in the CSS box model. https://www.w3.org/TR/css-box-3/. My native language is German and I know English only moderately. There may be better expressions than "page region".

> 
> Similar problem with Left and Right page border for Horizontal Position.

Yes. "border" is wrong. "Border" has not only a special meaning in the CSS box model, but is used in the same meaning as in CSS in the UI of LibreOffice.

> 
> Here is the text from the help page cited in comment 0.
> 
> "Left page border: the object is positioned considering the space available
> between the left page border and the left paragraph border."

Which is surely wrong.

> 
> In my experiments, it seems that the actual behavior is:
> "object positioned considering the space available between left page edge
> and left page border"

The actual page region used for positioning is the page region between left page edge and left edge of page text area (content area in CSS). It is the region of "margin area" plus "border area" plus "padding area" in the sense of CSS.

> 
> If that is also the expected behavior for Horizontal "Left page border",
> then the Help page must be corrected. Also, "Before Left Page Border" seems
> like a more accurate, informative description for that option.

"Border" is wrong.

The paragraph related items in the list for horizontal positions have similar problems.
 
> 
> If these comments seem relevant, then I will file separate tickets, and
> believe I can proceed without having to consult you again.

In principle I like to discuss it with you, I have only short time just before Easter holiday. A separate ticket for horizontal positioning would be good.
Comment 11 sdc.blanco 2022-04-14 12:56:32 UTC
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #10)
> Yes, they are problematic.
Thanks for your comments. Your English is fine here. Region is a good word (but lack of space in dropdown box is a problem).

bug 148591 now raises the problem. 
 
> Similar problem with Left and Right page border for Horizontal Position.
Thanks again for confirmations and clarifications. 

I can see now  that the so-called "Left page border" and "Right page border" are "cousins" (the left and right versions of "Page text area top/bottom".)

They might be better called.  "Left of page text area" (and "Right of page text area") or more precisely: "Region to left of page text area" 

Have opened bug 148593 to suggest changing these option labels.

> In principle I like to discuss it with you,
Would be helpful.  Thanks to your attachments here, I understand well now about page text area, etc., and understand what to expect when using the position controls, but I have subsequently realized that there might also be bugs in some of these controls, and I would not be able to be assess properly whether unexpected behavior is a bug or my inadequate understanding of the option. For example, I encountered this case today: "Vertical: Top to Margin" positions the object at top of page text area. I would guess this is a bug, either in the behavior or in the label, but do not know which!).  

Seems wise to first assess adequacy of the UI labels before addressing the documentation.  FTR, the descriptions in the help pages were first added in August 2021 (bug 73359).

> I have only short time just before Easter holiday.
Please enjoy your holiday!  No rush.
Comment 12 sdc.blanco 2022-04-22 22:40:07 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 13 sdc.blanco 2022-04-22 23:00:31 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 14 sdc.blanco 2022-04-26 06:42:07 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 15 sdc.blanco 2022-05-01 18:33:00 UTC
Created attachment 179879 [details]
Draft help page for "to" control for Vertical in Position section

@Regina - attached is a proposal for addressing the four controls identified in the OP for the Position and Size tab for Textbox and Shape. 

I have marked the paragraphs where changes or additions were made. I would be grateful if you could evaluate the three places identified in the attachment.
If they are all right, then this ticket would be resolved.

(I recognize that there might be other problems, with other options and descriptions in other parts of the attachment, but then it is better to open new tickets for them).
Comment 16 sdc.blanco 2022-05-01 18:44:45 UTC
One additional explanation/elaboration about the "first" change in the attachment to the "to" description.  From experiments with "Margin" and "Character", it seems that some of the "to" options are using a reference point, while other (such as Above/Below page text area) are using "regions" for vertical positioning, so I tried to express that idea -- but will be happy for critical evaluation.
Comment 17 Regina Henschel 2022-05-02 14:31:40 UTC
Whether a region or a line is used as reference depends on the selected position. So adding 'region' to the introduction of the 'To' part is correct.

The four new items are correct too.

So for solving this bug your suggestion is OK for me.

But for improving this help page in general, you might consider the following remarks:

The descriptions, including the already existing ones, of the individual regions and lines need a larger rework. When you try it out, enable margins, borders, padding and shadow. And insert objects which increase the line height.

Perhaps a solution would be to first make a Wiki page, which can easily contain illustrations. Such Wiki page has an associated talk page to discuss the problems. And then try to extract a shorter text for the help from it. 

Problems are for example:
For 'Margin' I see this:
The region spans from the top edge of the top-margin (Spacing above paragraph in the UI) to the top edge of the bottom-margin (Spacing below paragraph in the UI). It includes the top-margin, the border, the padding and the shadow. So it is the total paragraph area excluding the bottom-margin. I see no difference in the behavior between 'To character' and 'To paragraph'.
The position 'From Top' uses the top edge of this region as reference line.

Or for 'Paragraph text area':
The wording 'height of the paragraph' is not helpful at all. What is the 'height'? Actually it spans from the bottom edge of the top-padding area to the top-edge of the bottom-padding area.

Or for 'Line of text':
From what I see, it is not a region reference but a line reference. It is the top edge of the character area (the area which will be filled by a character background color) to which the object is anchored.

Or 'Row' compared to 'Character'. Do you see any difference? But the preview shows a difference. Yet another bug?

The help page misses how these settings work in other writing directions than left-to-right and with other scripts than Latin.
Comment 18 sdc.blanco 2022-05-02 22:03:20 UTC
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #17)
Many thanks for checking the option descriptions that I am adding, and also confirming that it is meaningful to add "region".

Recently there some discussion in the design meeting about reconfiguring this dialog (bug 148593 comment 9), so your idea about using a Wiki for developing the descriptions would be relevant in that connection. 
 
> But for improving this help page in general, you might consider the
> following remarks:
And thanks for your remarks. As noted in comment 15, I will make new tickets (and will copy your notes over to them). As you point out, careful testing is needed to understand the behavior.

> For 'Margin' I see no difference in the behavior between 'To character'
> and 'To paragraph'.
Did you notice in the help that the object is positioned "where the anchor is placed." --If you move the "to character" anchor away from the "paragraph" anchor, then you see a difference -- or at least I do.  (It was this case that made me realize that "reference point" also needed to be mentioned, and not only "region"). 

> Or for 'Line of text':
Didn't test systematically, but I agree that it is positioning the shape in relation to the top of the line (with Top, Center, Bottom). 

> Or 'Row' compared to 'Character'. Do you see any difference?
Did not text systematically. But have just tried now -- and agree that (a) preview shows a difference, but (b) hard to see how this option works (i.e., could not to what Row or Character are positioning the shape, plus there is an interaction if there is more than one shape "as character" in a line, if they have different Vertical positions (e.g, one Top and one Bottom).
 
> The help page misses how these settings work in other writing directions
> than left-to-right and with other scripts than Latin.
Maybe you can write this ticket?  I do not know the right terminology to describe this accurately. 

Thanks for your help with this ticket (and more generally).
Comment 19 Commit Notification 2022-05-02 22:09:11 UTC
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/help/commit/42ded671522a4e62659b561b0c8ea67fef5b9cea

tdf#148485 add missing options for Vertical positioning
Comment 20 sdc.blanco 2022-05-02 22:56:26 UTC
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #17)
> Or for 'Paragraph text area':
bug 148904