The following three options are missing in [1] under the "Position > Vertical > to" section Page text area bottom Page text area top Frame text area [1] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.4/en-US/text/shared/01/05230100.html?System=WIN&DbPAR=WRITER
Moving to NEW
And "Margin" is missing when anchor is "To frame"
Attachment 179506 [details] has a demonstration of "page text area top" and "page text area bottom" and two questions: 1. Why does Vertical: ”Top to Page text area top” go to top of entire page, while ”Top to Page text area” goes only to top of page text area” (shown in attachment). 2. Why is Vertical: ”Bottom to Page text area bottom” needed, when Vertical: ”Bottom to Entire page” seems to give the same effect? (shown in attachment) In short: trying to get definite information about the expected behavior of these two options.
Created attachment 179514 [details] Better version (without bottom clipped off) of attachment Same as attachment mentioned in previous comment, but now with the entire bottom visible.
Created attachment 179520 [details] areas on a page commented (only vertical) I have commented the areas of a page. Bug 135720 and bug 103611 and the bugs mentioned there in 'see also' are related to the implementation.
Created attachment 179523 [details] areas for a frame commented (only vertical)
@Regina -- deeply grateful for these attachments. (I was hoping such a description existed, but did not know how to ask for it.) Are these diagrams "published" somewhere? (The Document Properties suggest not). These documents (pictures) would be worth 1000 words in the Help pages (or Wiki pages or maybe the Writers Guide would be a good place - the 7.3 version mentions "page text area" once, but does not explain what it is.) I hope you will send these documents to the documentation mailing list and suggest to include them in the Writers Guide. Anyway, thanks! Your documents have allowed me to gain the relevant understanding. Now I will see if I can convert it to short, comprehensible English sentences.
To be suitable for the Writer guide, the header and footer area would also have to be displayed. But I don't have the time to do this properly at the moment. But feal free to use my documents as start for illustrations.
@Regina - sorry to bother you again -- but I believe that these labels Page text area bottom Page text area top are problematic. They can be misinterpreted to refer to the "top" of the Page text area. Seems better (more accurate, more descriptive) to call it: "Above page text area" (and "Below page text area"). Similar problem with Left and Right page border for Horizontal Position. Here is the text from the help page cited in comment 0. "Left page border: the object is positioned considering the space available between the left page border and the left paragraph border." In my experiments, it seems that the actual behavior is: "object positioned considering the space available between left page edge and left page border" If that is also the expected behavior for Horizontal "Left page border", then the Help page must be corrected. Also, "Before Left Page Border" seems like a more accurate, informative description for that option. If these comments seem relevant, then I will file separate tickets, and believe I can proceed without having to consult you again.
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #9) > @Regina - sorry to bother you again -- but I believe that these labels > > Page text area bottom > Page text area top > > are problematic. Yes, they are problematic. > > They can be misinterpreted to refer to the "top" of the Page text area. > Seems better (more accurate, more descriptive) to call it: > "Above page text area" (and "Below page text area"). I agree with you, that would be better. Full text in the help could then be "page region above page text area". The term "margin" instead of "page region" is not suitable, because it has a special technical meaning in the CSS box model. https://www.w3.org/TR/css-box-3/. My native language is German and I know English only moderately. There may be better expressions than "page region". > > Similar problem with Left and Right page border for Horizontal Position. Yes. "border" is wrong. "Border" has not only a special meaning in the CSS box model, but is used in the same meaning as in CSS in the UI of LibreOffice. > > Here is the text from the help page cited in comment 0. > > "Left page border: the object is positioned considering the space available > between the left page border and the left paragraph border." Which is surely wrong. > > In my experiments, it seems that the actual behavior is: > "object positioned considering the space available between left page edge > and left page border" The actual page region used for positioning is the page region between left page edge and left edge of page text area (content area in CSS). It is the region of "margin area" plus "border area" plus "padding area" in the sense of CSS. > > If that is also the expected behavior for Horizontal "Left page border", > then the Help page must be corrected. Also, "Before Left Page Border" seems > like a more accurate, informative description for that option. "Border" is wrong. The paragraph related items in the list for horizontal positions have similar problems. > > If these comments seem relevant, then I will file separate tickets, and > believe I can proceed without having to consult you again. In principle I like to discuss it with you, I have only short time just before Easter holiday. A separate ticket for horizontal positioning would be good.
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #10) > Yes, they are problematic. Thanks for your comments. Your English is fine here. Region is a good word (but lack of space in dropdown box is a problem). bug 148591 now raises the problem. > Similar problem with Left and Right page border for Horizontal Position. Thanks again for confirmations and clarifications. I can see now that the so-called "Left page border" and "Right page border" are "cousins" (the left and right versions of "Page text area top/bottom".) They might be better called. "Left of page text area" (and "Right of page text area") or more precisely: "Region to left of page text area" Have opened bug 148593 to suggest changing these option labels. > In principle I like to discuss it with you, Would be helpful. Thanks to your attachments here, I understand well now about page text area, etc., and understand what to expect when using the position controls, but I have subsequently realized that there might also be bugs in some of these controls, and I would not be able to be assess properly whether unexpected behavior is a bug or my inadequate understanding of the option. For example, I encountered this case today: "Vertical: Top to Margin" positions the object at top of page text area. I would guess this is a bug, either in the behavior or in the label, but do not know which!). Seems wise to first assess adequacy of the UI labels before addressing the documentation. FTR, the descriptions in the help pages were first added in August 2021 (bug 73359). > I have only short time just before Easter holiday. Please enjoy your holiday! No rush.
Created attachment 179735 [details] Help description Proceeding incrementally in small steps. 1. Attached is a "draft" for the description of Page text area top/bottom -- but now that bug 148591 is confirmed -- I will make a patch to change the labels as shown in the attachment and proposed in bug 148591 comment 0 (if you agree). 2. I think one other change is needed in the relevant help page [1]. The "to" control is described in help as a "reference point" but iiuc it is better to describe "to" as the "region where the Vertical positioning is being made". (see attachment for concrete proposal). 3. If point #2 is ok, then I have written the descriptions for these two commands in terms of the "regions" that they define. (see attachment) Thanks for your evaluation of these three points. [1] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.4/en-US/text/shared/01/05230100.html?&DbPAR=WRITER
Created attachment 179736 [details] Revised version of proposal, without redundancy In checking that the help description uploaded properly, I could see that it had unnecessary repetition, so the attached is the same idea before, but now in a cleaner version, which might even be comprehensible. If this fragment seems all right, then it gives a template for how to write (and correct) other descriptions of regions.
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > Frame text area Proposal for description: Using the idea to change the description of the "to" control to refer to the region to be used for position (mentioned in #2 in comment 12), then the text would start: The object can be positioned in relation to the following regions: text area of the frame. not the most informative description, but could not find a clear way to express the meaning of "text area" -- without starting to talk about padding, etc.
Created attachment 179879 [details] Draft help page for "to" control for Vertical in Position section @Regina - attached is a proposal for addressing the four controls identified in the OP for the Position and Size tab for Textbox and Shape. I have marked the paragraphs where changes or additions were made. I would be grateful if you could evaluate the three places identified in the attachment. If they are all right, then this ticket would be resolved. (I recognize that there might be other problems, with other options and descriptions in other parts of the attachment, but then it is better to open new tickets for them).
One additional explanation/elaboration about the "first" change in the attachment to the "to" description. From experiments with "Margin" and "Character", it seems that some of the "to" options are using a reference point, while other (such as Above/Below page text area) are using "regions" for vertical positioning, so I tried to express that idea -- but will be happy for critical evaluation.
Whether a region or a line is used as reference depends on the selected position. So adding 'region' to the introduction of the 'To' part is correct. The four new items are correct too. So for solving this bug your suggestion is OK for me. But for improving this help page in general, you might consider the following remarks: The descriptions, including the already existing ones, of the individual regions and lines need a larger rework. When you try it out, enable margins, borders, padding and shadow. And insert objects which increase the line height. Perhaps a solution would be to first make a Wiki page, which can easily contain illustrations. Such Wiki page has an associated talk page to discuss the problems. And then try to extract a shorter text for the help from it. Problems are for example: For 'Margin' I see this: The region spans from the top edge of the top-margin (Spacing above paragraph in the UI) to the top edge of the bottom-margin (Spacing below paragraph in the UI). It includes the top-margin, the border, the padding and the shadow. So it is the total paragraph area excluding the bottom-margin. I see no difference in the behavior between 'To character' and 'To paragraph'. The position 'From Top' uses the top edge of this region as reference line. Or for 'Paragraph text area': The wording 'height of the paragraph' is not helpful at all. What is the 'height'? Actually it spans from the bottom edge of the top-padding area to the top-edge of the bottom-padding area. Or for 'Line of text': From what I see, it is not a region reference but a line reference. It is the top edge of the character area (the area which will be filled by a character background color) to which the object is anchored. Or 'Row' compared to 'Character'. Do you see any difference? But the preview shows a difference. Yet another bug? The help page misses how these settings work in other writing directions than left-to-right and with other scripts than Latin.
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #17) Many thanks for checking the option descriptions that I am adding, and also confirming that it is meaningful to add "region". Recently there some discussion in the design meeting about reconfiguring this dialog (bug 148593 comment 9), so your idea about using a Wiki for developing the descriptions would be relevant in that connection. > But for improving this help page in general, you might consider the > following remarks: And thanks for your remarks. As noted in comment 15, I will make new tickets (and will copy your notes over to them). As you point out, careful testing is needed to understand the behavior. > For 'Margin' I see no difference in the behavior between 'To character' > and 'To paragraph'. Did you notice in the help that the object is positioned "where the anchor is placed." --If you move the "to character" anchor away from the "paragraph" anchor, then you see a difference -- or at least I do. (It was this case that made me realize that "reference point" also needed to be mentioned, and not only "region"). > Or for 'Line of text': Didn't test systematically, but I agree that it is positioning the shape in relation to the top of the line (with Top, Center, Bottom). > Or 'Row' compared to 'Character'. Do you see any difference? Did not text systematically. But have just tried now -- and agree that (a) preview shows a difference, but (b) hard to see how this option works (i.e., could not to what Row or Character are positioning the shape, plus there is an interaction if there is more than one shape "as character" in a line, if they have different Vertical positions (e.g, one Top and one Bottom). > The help page misses how these settings work in other writing directions > than left-to-right and with other scripts than Latin. Maybe you can write this ticket? I do not know the right terminology to describe this accurately. Thanks for your help with this ticket (and more generally).
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/help/commit/42ded671522a4e62659b561b0c8ea67fef5b9cea tdf#148485 add missing options for Vertical positioning
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #17) > Or for 'Paragraph text area': bug 148904