Insert - Table of Contents and Index - Index Entry. Points for consideration and repair: 1. colons missing in all labels with buddy controls. 2. "Main entry" only appear when Index is "Alphabetical Index" Is the vertical spacing between "Main entry" and "Second key" correct? 3. Maybe there should be a "Section title" before "Apply to all similar texts" (and its subcontrols) -- because these controls are only active when text is selected before opening the dialog. For example: "Selected Entry" or "For Selected Entry" This would mark off this section as having a different purpose that the previous controls (and "explain" implicitly why it is greyed out). 4. In light of previous point, maybe "Selection" is not the best title at the top of the dialog. Here is an inadequate alternative: "Item to Index" -- in case it inspires a better choice: 5. "Level" should be "Outline Level"
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > 5. "Level" should be "Outline Level" Better: "Index Level" Reasons: 1. This level only affects the position of the index entry in the TOC or User-Defined Index. 2. It has nothing to do with Outline Level (because paragraphs/PS are not involved).
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > 1. colons missing in all labels with buddy controls. Yes, see https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines/UIWriting > 2. "Main entry" only appear when Index is "Alphabetical Index" > Is the vertical spacing between "Main entry" and "Second key" correct? No, it has to be 6px according https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines/PropertyDialog > 3. Maybe there should be a "Section title" before "Apply to all similar... The section title makes only sense if the controls are logically organized together. And as you explained this "apply to similar" belongs to the entry. > 4. In light of previous point, maybe "Selection" is not the best title... If we stay with only one frame it could be removed. > 5. "Level" should be "Outline Level" Yes, see bug 152605 comment 14.
Created attachment 185343 [details] Screenshot of the dialog ...for the lazy people
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2) > > 5. "Level" should be "Outline Level" > Yes, see bug 152605 comment 14. I want to disagree with myself and suggest this label should be: Index Level Reason: The dialog (Insert Index Entry) is inserting "index marks", which has nothing to do with Outline Level. afaict, there are two other places where this issue ("index level") comes up (for now). 1. "Assign Styles" dialog (accessible from the "Type" tab) (and its extended tip, which currently refers to "proper heading level on which the style will be included in the index" -- and will be addressed as part of bug 152605). The numbers 0-9 in the Assign Styles dialog are NOT outline levels. The help page for this dialog [1] also refers to index levels. 2. The "Styles" tab also refers to "Levels" -- but it would be better if it was "Index levels" (maybe this change can be part of this ticket? or is a new ticket preferred?) This label would be consistent with the help page [2], and the guide [3], which is only explaining how to use the dialog. [1] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/swriter/01/04120219.html [2] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/swriter/01/04120201.html [3] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/swriter/guide/indices_form.html
If the suggestion (in comment 4) that "Index Level" is the correct label in the Insert/Edit Entry dialog, then the help page [1] entry for "Level" is completely wrong. ________________ Entries using the paragraph format "Heading X" (X = 1-10) can be automatically added to the table of contents. The level of the entry in the index corresponds to the outline level of the heading style. ________________ The first sentence is not relevant for this dialog. The second sentence inverts the relation between outline levels and index levels. Will update this entry the discussion here is concluded. [1] https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/swriter/01/04120100.html
An outline level = 1 will add this entry to the first level, if 2 it will be the second. It behaves exactly like an outline level. Don't ask me what it is good for ;-).
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6) > Don't ask me what it is good for ;-). When “Outline” is selected in “Create From” (in Type tab), then the outline level of a PS is assigned to the corresponding numerical index Level. Otherwise, "outline level" has no other significance in relation to indices. As an experiment – uncheck Outline (in the Type tab), check Additional Styles, and use "Assign Styles" dialog to assign Heading 1 to some lower index level (e.g., 7). When you update the index, only Heading 1 paragraphs will appear (with a large indent, if using default settings, as specified in PS "Contents 7", if level 7 was selected).
Comment 4 makes a case for acknowledging "index level" as a meaningful LO concept for discussing indices. - “Index levels” in LO are actually more like categories. - Each “index level” gets its own PS (assigned in the Styles tab) and “entry structure” (defined in the Entries tab). - The numbers of the index levels provide a way to “identify” or “differentiate” which PS and entry structure should be applied to a particular index level, but there is no "structure" between levels that is enforced in the software. - The appearance/formatting of a level are achieved by the entry structure and PS assigned to an index level. - There is probably a mnemonic value for users to refer to "levels" (even if they are not levels in the software) because indices are often used to communicate a hierarchical structure. Comment 5 (and comment 6) illustrates confusions about the relation between index levels and outline levels => would be worthwhile to discuss indices without reference to outline levels (except for the already noted instance when “Outline” is checked), and always referring explicity (in the UI and help) to "index level" or "outline level" when appropriate. One additional terminological issue needs/deserves consideration for cleaning up the help pages (and tool/extended tips) for indices. In the “Assign Styles” help page [1], there is mention of an “index hierarchy”. I would propose to use only “index structure” when referring to the overall result/appearance of the index (because it is neutral about the form/function of the structure), and avoid words like “hierarchy” and “outline” when referring to the overall index (because not all indices are not necessarily a hierarchy or outline, or at least these terms are not defined within LO).
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/39a956dcf5c40c95a97768346046366c93abc60f tdf#153499 Add missing colons to labels with buddy controls It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Mike, what do you think about a differentiation between "outline level" for headings and "index level" for index entries? It's also relevant for the ToC discussed in bug 153596.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #10) > Mike, what do you think about a differentiation between "outline level" for > headings and "index level" for index entries? I'm sorry, I likely miss context; from the top of my head, I just need to point out that index entry level is *different* from outline level. First of all, the entries themselves do not *create* outline structure, only reflect it. Next, they may be built from not only outline, but also from manually selected paragraph styles, and even from special fields ("index marks").
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #8) > Comment 4 makes a case for acknowledging "index level" as a meaningful LO > concept for discussing indices. Supported with comment 11. My concerns are that we name heading level now outline level and use outline for the hierarchy but introduce another level for indexes. It would have been more clear if outlines might have heading and index levels (ignoring here the PS name Heading which is confusing too). Anyway, if there is no objection let's go this way.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12) > My concerns are... (perhaps off-topic) - an attempt to address these concerns... > that we name heading level now outline level "heading level" never existed as a meaningful concept in LO, so no change is being made from "heading level" to "outline level". It is highly likely that users/help writers/etc. have informally collapsed "heading" and "outline level" into a phrase like "heading level", but that is not a justification for such usage in the UI (including tooltips) and help pages. The point of bug 152605 is only to remove the few instances where "heading level" appears. > and use outline for the hierarchy I have not seen any proposal for doing that. As you noted (Bug 152605, comment 19), the term "outline" is confusing. I propose/plan to use the phrase "heading structure" (as a more neutral phrase) to refer to documents that use headings with different outline levels. So far I have not seen any case in "help" or "tooltips", in relation to PS, TOC, index, caption numbering, chapter/heading numbering where it is necessary to use "outline" or "hierarchy". It seems an advantage (in UI and help) to avoid terms like "outline" and "hierarchy", which are likely to have different meanings to different persons. > but introduce another level for indexes. Nothing is being "introduced". Rather the discussion here (comment 4, comment 11) highlights that "index level" already exists, but it has become apparent that this term can (should) be better indicated in the UI and help. As comment 5 illustrates there are serious confusions (in existing help pages) about the relation between index level and outline level, where the hope is that better UI labels and help pages will improve the situation. > It would been more clear if outlines might have heading and index levels What would be more clear? when you write "heading level", do you mean "outline level"? Does "outline" mean "heading structure"? If so, then what you request already exists. (can elaborate if needed) @Mike -- thanks for the "off the top of my head". As noted in comment 12 it confirms a central and critical point that "index level" and "outline level" are different, and more generally confirms (or indicates) important issues to be documented in help.
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/fd76d69adab591789e551b30324183df2874961a tdf#153499 missing colon in subdialog to Insert Index Entry It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
We briefly talked about this effort in the design meeting and appreciate your work. Consistency is very welcome.
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/208a5511d786036ef4428586e441e17f280a9f11 tdf#153499 "Level" -> "Index level"; add/revise tool/extended tip It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/6d9b9d1228cdee69e767833202442a1fed6174a6 tdf#153499 revise tooltip; correct extended tip for "Index level" It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Heiko Tietze committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/0f9226287fec770c4c9c0fe49b1d7046d995a3e9 Related tdf#153499 - Index Entry UI It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Resolved/fixed, Seth?
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #19) > Resolved/fixed, Seth? Looks good without "Selection" label and with spacing fixed in relation to "Main entry". And here is a patch in relation to point nr. 3 in OP, which should resolve this ticket. https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/148695
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/4ec75d22eb916e3809e9e92f77fd25e33f6b21ee tdf#153499 Add "For Selected Entry" label It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Seth Chaiklin committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/help/commit/5041e95a2e3804ded772be4b6d6a3d6d7f9e5039 tdf#153499 add new section title and missing options; corrections to "Level" and navigation
Heiko Tietze committed a patch related to this issue. It has been pushed to "master": https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/a2756bf71a304f2bb1bf49753dfd37a3402bc463 Resolves tdf#153499 - Hide newly introduced frame label It will be available in 7.6.0. The patch should be included in the daily builds available at https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More information about daily builds can be found at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.
Status: The issues raised in the OP were focused on the appearance of the then current "Insert Index Entry" dialog. All those issues have been addressed now, and relevant changes in the help pages are made, so closing as FIXED.