Impress has a category of styles named "Presentation Styles". However - the items listed as presentation styles are obviously not styles of presentations. They are: Background Background objects Notes Outline 1 Outline 2 ... etc. ... Outline 9 Subtitle Title These seem to be... what? Some paragraph styles and some drawing object styles?
It's a drawing style, also called "Presentation Style" in Draw with a couple of more meaningful item in this case (updated for bug 117455). I suggest to rename it to "Drawing Style" and add a "Default Drawing Style" as root item (similar to Draw, solving hopefully bug 154493; consider also bug 152656 about a different label), with new children Text and Graphics, and eventually the current items underneath. A question is whether we use Background and Background objects in Impress since it should be loaded from templates anyway. In this case I would delete these pointless styles. Another issue is that applying Title, for example, to the text box has no effect (changing the Title attribute affects correctly the slide title).
Eyal, did you try to read the Impress guide? Please do it. Presentation styles are for slides view settings. Drawing styles are for shapes than you can draw inside slides. I think we have this system for interoperability too...
(In reply to Roman Kuznetsov from comment #2) > Presentation styles are for slides view settings. Drawing styles are for shapes... https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/simpress/01/05100000.html https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/1d/IG4202-SlideMastersStylesTemplates.pdf Roman is right, the Drawing Styles exist independently from the Presentation Styles. Does it needs to be renamed?
(In reply to Roman Kuznetsov from comment #2) > Eyal, did you try to read the Impress guide? Please do it. Of course not! Or, if I did - I intentionally forget/ignore what it says. I'm examining the app as it stands, on its own. Using LO should be consistent and (relatively) clear without requiring auxiliary documents. > Presentation styles are for slides view settings. 1. "slides view settings" is not a concept that's explained/presented by the Impress UI. 2. Presentation styles are styles of presentations, like list styles are styles for lists and Drawing Object styles are styles of drawing objects (and see bug 152656 about adding the word "object"). > Drawing styles are for shapes than you can draw inside slides. So, you're disagreeing with Regina? > I think we have this system for interoperability too... Please elaborate.
(In reply to Roman Kuznetsov from comment #2) > Eyal, did you try to read the Impress guide? Please do it. Of course not! Or, if I did - I intentionally forget/ignore what it says. I'm examining the app as it stands, on its own. Using LO should be consistent and (relatively) clear without requiring auxiliary documents. > Presentation styles are for slides view settings. 1. "slides view settings" is not a concept that's explained/presented by the Impress UI. 2. Presentation styles are styles of presentations, like list styles are styles for lists and Drawing Object styles are styles of drawing objects (and see bug 152656 about adding the word "object"). > I think we have this system for interoperability too... Please elaborate.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3) > Roman is right, the Drawing Styles exist independently from the Presentation > Styles. Does it needs to be renamed? You're the one who suggested renaming it... I'm just noting that there's a category of styles which isn't what it purports to be. It's certainly not the "Drawing styles" category. If you have a name which will explain what it is, we can use that. > (In reply to Roman Kuznetsov from comment #2) > > Presentation styles are for slides view settings. Drawing styles are for shapes... > > https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/simpress/01/05100000.html Emphasizing that this bug is _not_ mainly about the documentation, let me quote what that says: "Show styles used in LibreOffice Impress AutoLayouts. You can only modify Presentation Styles." I've never heard of AutoLayouts :-( Also, if one presses F1 after choosing the "Presentation Styles" category, one gets "Could not find Help page (404)": /text/shared/05/err_html.html?System=UNIX&DbPAR=IMPRESS&HID=sfx/ui/templatepanel/treeview > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/1d/IG4202- > SlideMastersStylesTemplates.pdf This says: "Presentation styles affect three elements of a slide master: the background, background objects ..., and the text placed on the slide. " So, these aren't styles at all, they're just a way to access the DF of elements on the slide master. Perhaps you want to rename: "Presentation Styles" -> "Slide Master Elements"? TBH, I believe it's more fundamental problem that the styles UI is used both for categories of proper styles - to which you can add new styles, and which you can apply to many objects, and for "fixed" properties of "fixed" entities - without a clear distinction between them. Perhaps I should open a separate bug about that.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #0) > Impress has a category of styles named "Presentation Styles". However - the > items listed as presentation styles are obviously not styles of > presentations. They are: > > Background > Background objects > Notes > Outline 1 > Outline 2 > ... etc. ... > Outline 9 > Subtitle > Title > > These seem to be... what? Some paragraph styles and some drawing object > styles? Those styles belong to master-pages. They are a convenient way to change the current master-page without switching into master view.
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #7) > Those styles belong to master-pages. They are a convenient way to change the > current master-page without switching into master view. 1. These aren't really styles; at least, most of them aren't. 2. They're not styles-of-presentations So let's rename them. It's still quite a mess though, this whole "We won't have slide styles, but we'll hijack the styles sidebar UI in favor of making master slides behave as though you had styles" business.
I fully disagree with this proposal
(In reply to Roman Kuznetsov from comment #9) > I fully disagree with this proposal Ok, so how would you fix this bug? I'm not sure getting into the depths of the clash between the concept of styles and of masters is something that has a lot of support right now. See the discussion in bug 152655, for example.
The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting but didn't receive further input. Presentation styles are used in the master view primarily but changing the background color or the bullets is always possible. So we cannot hide it in the normal mode. Renaming might be an option but it would still be used as a style; and some people disagree. "Style" is not a protected name and used, for example, for table styles as well (which are rather templates). This terminology is an academic topic for normal users who understand it as a way to change attributes for the whole document. => NAB However, the functionality is not documented well https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/lo/text/simpress/01/05100000.html and might deserve improvement. Forwarding the topic although Eyal disagrees.
First - an app bug is never a documentation bug. > Renaming might be an option but it would still be used as a style; Perhaps, but not as presentation styles. Actually, we should probably have a deeper conversation about "not-really-style-styles" we have in all sorts of categories, and whether we need some kind of paradigmatic reform. But that's an aside. > and some people disagree. One person who disagreed did not explain why nor suggest an alternative. What are the other reasons for disagreement? > "Style" is not a protected name and used, for example, for table styles as well (which are rather templates). That's a bug, actually - bug 151264. We should have proper table styles. But see above. > This terminology is an academic topic for normal users who understand it as a way to change attributes for the whole document. On the contrary. Users read "presentation styles" and expect styles of presentations; but what they see is something else. And coupled with other bugs like bug 154493, and the lack of important style categories in Impress (bug 152652 and its blockers) - the effective result is that Impress users are altogether deterred from using styles. And that's bad.
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #12) > > This terminology is an academic topic for normal users who understand it as a way to change attributes for the whole document. > > On the contrary. Users read "presentation styles" and expect styles of > presentations... Please find support for your POV; me understands Presentation Styles as something that alters the whole presentation and those master related styles do it.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #13) > Please find support for your POV The support is the structure of the styles sidebar and the grammar of the English language. The styles sidebar has "Styles of X" categories - for different kinds of entities X. Each of these categories only has styles which can apply to X objects, and nothing else.
"Presentation Styles" are styles, which are only available in Impress, whereas "Drawing Styles" are available in Draw too and hopefully soon in Calc and Writer. So you should read "Presentation Styles" as "Styles which are used in presentations for objects which are specific for presentations". And "Drawing Styles" are "Styles for all kind of drawing objects, regardless whether they are used in Impress or Draw". "Presentation Styles" are connected to a master page. If you change such style, when you are not in master view, the master page of the current page is affected. Some of these styles are bound to certain objects of the master page. These are "Title", "Subtitle" and the "Outline"-styles. The "Background objects" style is used for all other objects on a master page. Footer, Date/Time and Page number fields belong to this group too, but you will notice it only if you remove the direct formatting which they have got as default. The "Background" is for the background of the master page. "Notes" is for the object, were you enter your notes to a slide. "Title", "Subtitle", "Outline" and "Notes" are not simple drawing objects, but they have a placeholder feature. When you examine these objects with the Development Tools and look at their ShapeType, you will see, that they are of kind com.sun.star.presentation, whereas other objects are of kind com.sun.star.drawing. So for me "Presentation Styles" is a correct short label. If a little bit longer text is possible, then "presentation specific styles" might work.
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #15) > So you should read "Presentation Styles" as "Styles which > are used in presentations for objects which are specific for presentations". Regina, come on. That's not a serious suggestion. Think again of the style categories we have in our modules: Writer: Paragraph Styles, Character Styles, Page Styles, List Styles. Calc: Cell Styles, Drawing (Object) Styles, Page Styles. Impress: Drawing (Object) Styles, Presentation Styles. For all of these categories, except "Presentation Styles", the semantic is very clear: When you have an XYZ, you can choose the XYZ Styles category on the styles tab, and apply any one of those styles to your XYZ. And that's because "XYZ Styles" are "Styles of XYZ entities", "Styles applicable any XYZ entity": Page styles are styles of pages, paragraph styles are styles of paragraphs etc. No LO user looks at, say, "List styles" and thinks that these are "styles which a re used in lists for objects which are specific for lists". Those are styles for lists - plain and simple. > When you examine these objects with the Development Tools and look at their > ShapeType, you will see, that they are of kind com.sun.star.presentation, > whereas other objects are of kind com.sun.star.drawing. But LO users don't examine anything with developer tools. We see what's in front of us and expect clear and consistent information from the UI. Which we mostly do get, except for "Presentation Styles". That's simply a misuse of the styles sidebar. Items in master slides can be accessed via master slide view. and if it's really important for some reason to have a list of these items on the sidebar - developers can introduce a different sidebar, not 'Styles', for master-slide elements or presentation elements or what-not.
Interesting comments, thanks everyone. Now that I understand the feature better, I'll give my view: - agreed that the feature is useful and shouldn't be hidden away into the Master view - agreed with Regina that they are styles – but they do have striking differences with other styles (inability to apply them; inability to create new ones) - agreed with Eyal that they are quite confusing at first - agreed with Heiko that documentation is lacking I suggest, as a first step: - a better name, but retaining the term "style". What about a compromise like "Presentation element styles" or "Presentation component styles"? (Using "Presentation" instead of "Slide" as it affects the whole presentation.) - documentation needs to be more detailed If a deeper change is needed, let's outline that in a clearer, new report. Note that "Presentation Styles" was already used in OOo 3.3, and that "Master Elements" should be avoided as it is already in the UI: Slide > Master Elements...
(In reply to Stéphane Guillou (stragu) from comment #17) > I suggest, as a first step: > - a better name, but retaining the term "style". What about a compromise > like "Presentation element styles" or "Presentation component styles"? Both are less confusing than what we have now, but still not good enough IMHO for two reasons: 1. Too long. 2. That being said - I like the second option over the first. Additional options: * "Slide component styles" * "Slide element styles" * "Slide components" * "Slide master elements" * "Master elements" the benefit of the last three options is that it creates a better distinction between the other style categories and this one, while not claiming these are not styles. It would seem to the user like a way to format presentation components generally, which is not DF. > (Using "Presentation" instead of "Slide" as it affects the whole > presentation.) I get that, but think it's not necessary, because the list of names makes it clear it's not only about what's in the _current_ slide, just like everything else in the styles sidebar affects the entire presentation. > If a deeper change is needed, let's outline that in a clearer, new report. Actually, I wish we could discuss this at the design meeting some time. But a rename will resolve this bug AFAIAC. > Note that "Presentation Styles" was already used in OOo 3.3, and that > "Master Elements" should be avoided as it is already in the UI: Slide > > Master Elements... Actually, that's not half bad! Because it's not the "Master Elements..." command; it's a label at the top of a part of the styles sidebar.