Bug 33173 - Tabbed UI: Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
Summary: Tabbed UI: Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: UI (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All All
: medium enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
: 38401 121809 144946 156204 163925 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks: Writer-Enhancements
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2011-01-15 16:23 UTC by Todd
Modified: 2024-11-22 10:15 UTC (History)
17 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
example of "Divider Tabs" (29.42 KB, image/jpeg)
2011-01-15 16:23 UTC, Todd
Details
Example of WordPro tabbed Divisions (5.20 KB, image/png)
2012-07-04 17:17 UTC, bugzillafan
Details
screenshot of Libreoffice with several document opened as tabs (47.13 KB, image/png)
2014-11-05 14:59 UTC, sasha.libreoffice
Details
Better screen shot of single WordPro document with tabbed divisions and sections (110.77 KB, image/png)
2016-05-26 14:42 UTC, Roland Hughes
Details

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Description Todd 2011-01-15 16:23:16 UTC
Created attachment 42090 [details]
example of "Divider Tabs"

This is a hold over enhancement request from OO:
http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=20701

I really love Lotus WordPro's tabbed divisions and tabbed sections ("Divider tabs"), which basically allow you to maneuver around long and complex documents very easily.  There is no similar feature in Writer, though the Navigator has some of that functionality.

Across the top of the document are a series of tabs each representing
a different section/subsection of the document.  The tabs are created
and named as you select Create>Division or Create>Section from the
menu.

Tab one might be called "Introduction" and have several nested
Subsections; the next main tab might be called BODY and contain
subdivisions each containing both a chapter and even subsections
themselves dividing the chapters up.  footnotes/endnotes can then be
created in a separate Bibliography division etc...

What is being asked for here is "Divider tabs".  The dividers are in
the SAME document, not separate documents as in Firefox.  It is a way
of quickly going to chapters, etc. in your document.

From Word Pro's help file:
    Divider tabs represent divisions and sections in a document. 
    They can be used to structure a document and reveal its 
    organization at a glance. Word Pro does not display divider
    tabs by default; you can display them by clicking the icon 
    on your workspace.

"Divider tabs" are an EXTREMELY powerful productivity tool.  They
are the main reason I have delayed switching from Word Pro to
Libre Office Writer.

Please consider creating this type of interface Feature.

Many thanks,
-T
Comment 1 Björn Michaelsen 2011-12-23 11:43:47 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 2 Todd 2011-12-30 21:08:45 UTC
Please consider this request under the new 3.5.  It will add a lot of productivity to LO.

Many thanks,
-T
Comment 3 sasha.libreoffice 2012-02-23 03:17:59 UTC
As I understand, we insert Bookmarks using Insert->Bookmark, and they appear in specific toolbar as tabs.
IMHO it can be implemented using Basic macro.

@ Todd
My be such functionality exist somewhere among OpenOffice extensions. Please, verify.
Comment 4 Todd 2012-02-24 22:09:14 UTC
(In reply to comment #3)
> As I understand, we insert Bookmarks using Insert->Bookmark, and they appear in
> specific toolbar as tabs.
> IMHO it can be implemented using Basic macro.
> 
> @ Todd
> My be such functionality exist somewhere among OpenOffice extensions. Please,
> verify.

Hi Sasha,

   Did not find an applicable extension.

   Would you please look at the attachment I added:
       https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=42090

   The functionality trumps bookmarks by leaps and bounds.  So much so that I find myself in the dilapidated Word Pro instead of LO because I can not have my Division Tabs.  And you can not right click on misspelled words either -- a big pain in the neck -- in Word Pro, but the Divider Tabs so trumps anything LO has that I stay in Word Pro.  Oh Ya, I indeed want it all!  (Pesky users!)

   Please consider adding Divider Tabs to LO.

Many thanks,
-T
Comment 5 sasha.libreoffice 2012-02-24 22:24:23 UTC
Thanks for additional search.
Comment 6 bugzillafan 2012-07-04 17:11:18 UTC
As a longtime Lotus WordPro user trying to migrate to LO Writer, I have to say that it is hugely frustrating not to have an equivalent to the tabbed Divisions function found in WordPro.  The WordPro Divisions can be easily created, copied, move, or deleted, and the user can name or color them for easy reference.  The tabs are always in view at the top of the screen, making it a snap for the user to quickly move around in the various divisions of a document.  Having absolutely depended on the WordPro Divisions functionality to when writing my book, I can only say with regret that there is no way on earth I'd choose LO for such a project if I had to do it all over again now.  

LO has many excellent features and I'm very much in favor of its continued growth and success, but I'm afraid the lack of this sort of tabbed Division function is a real deficiency in an otherwise great program.  Please make this a priority in your program improvements.

Thank you.
Comment 7 bugzillafan 2012-07-04 17:17:58 UTC
Created attachment 63836 [details]
Example of WordPro tabbed Divisions

This image shows the tabbed Divisions in WordPro.  They have been given custom colors and namees in order to make it easy and fast to move around in the document.  They would be a HUGE improvement in LO.  Please make this an urgent project.  Thanks.
Comment 8 Todd 2012-07-04 17:44:33 UTC
Hi All,

   I am the original poster.  Would you please consider adding this feature to the next release of Libre Office?  It would be a HUGE performance improvement.  It would also make a ton of converts from Word Pro and earn you their undying gratitude.  And, with you guys tremendous talent, it should be an easy and fun project.

Many thanks,
-T
Comment 9 Todd 2012-07-04 21:49:57 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 10 sasha.libreoffice 2012-07-06 06:21:18 UTC
Changing status to New
It is obvious that tabs are useful. May programs have them. For example Kate, Gimp 2.8, Firefox.
IMHO LibreOffice has internals for rendering tabs, because they are in Calc. 
But needed to create new pane for Writer where tabs will live.
Comment 11 alubrutaru 2013-03-04 00:03:12 UTC
Pleeeeaaaaseeee add tabs feature! It's very useful and because it's so common in a lot of programs, it became a habit, a "by default" way of working.

Thank you for LibreOffice
Comment 12 alubrutaru 2013-03-04 00:05:21 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 13 Todd 2013-03-05 03:51:09 UTC
(In reply to comment #12)
> Pleeeeaaaaseeee add tabs feature! It's very useful and because it's so
> common in a lot of programs, it became a habit, a "by default" way of
> working.
> 
> Thank you for LibreOffice

I second that request.  I still use Word Pro for no other reason other than the division tabs
Comment 14 Rodolfo 2013-03-12 05:09:56 UTC
So every section would automatically generate a tab?
Or you could select what section creates a tab?

And how these nested tabs would work? In different "rows"?
Comment 15 Todd 2013-03-12 18:38:21 UTC
(In reply to comment #14)
> So every section would automatically generate a tab?
> Or you could select what section creates a tab?

We want to place them manually where we want them
 
> And how these nested tabs would work? In different "rows"?

----> January                    February
    |                            |
    --> Week 1; week 2; week 3    week1; week 2

Just in a row underneath.

Nesting never worked very well in Word Pro.  Would be ecstatic if you only got the tabs working.   No need to get fancy with the nesting right away.
Comment 16 Björn Michaelsen 2014-01-17 00:43:55 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 17 Owen Genat (retired) 2014-07-26 10:37:07 UTC
*** Bug 37806 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 18 Owen Genat (retired) 2014-09-15 11:26:57 UTC
Summary amended for clarity.
Comment 19 Todd 2014-11-04 18:45:16 UTC Comment hidden (no-value)
Comment 20 sasha.libreoffice 2014-11-05 14:59:57 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 21 Roland Hughes 2014-11-05 15:08:54 UTC
Documents opened as tabs is a _totally_ unrelated animal.  You presented a fish and this bug is talking about a tiger.

Lotus WordPro, and another commercial product currently on the market, had tabbed document sections.  You could drag&drop the tabs to visually re-order a book or some other document.  You could control which tabs were included in print jobs (so your research notes didn't get printed with your manuscript.)

Many authors and technical writers use the tabbed document sections to contain a chapter, TOC, index, research, to-do lists, etc.  When you want to work on any particular section you click on the tab and work on it.

The massive difference here is that everything is in a single data file.  What currently exists is an unworkable concession of having 90+ files in a single directory.  Very easy for catastrophe to strike.
Comment 22 Roland Hughes 2016-05-26 14:42:02 UTC
Created attachment 125298 [details]
Better screen shot of single WordPro document with tabbed divisions and sections

Here is a better example of tabbed document in WordPro. I installed SmartSuite 98 under wine on 64-bit Ubuntu 16.04. I took the default wine config of XP. Notice how the tab I titled Main Document expands to include Section 1 as that section is part of the division. Research Notes and Another Division are not different document files. They are different divisions within the same WordPro document file.

I do hate to promote anything on Amazon, but several people are selling it on there.

http://www.amazon.com/Lotus-SmartSuite-9-8-Millenium-Edition/dp/B0002Z9TGO

Other places:
https://www.buycheapsoftware.com/details~productID~1004.asp

Not certain about this download site:
http://lotus-smartsuite.joydownload.com/

Quite honestly, SmartSuite was the best office package ever created. IBM just chose to bungle it.
Comment 23 Alex Thurgood 2017-08-09 15:02:15 UTC
*** Bug 111431 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 24 Alex Thurgood 2017-08-09 15:04:59 UTC
As a former user of Lotus Smartsuite, I can only agree.
Another use case, as illustrated by the duplicate I just flagged, would be the ability to use the tabs to create tabbed forms for database work.

Currently, in a form, one can only use sections which one can hide or reveal, but the form designer is still constrained to single page and corresponding page width. Using tabs in forms to jump from one data entry section to another is a common UI-design tool in db form design, and is present in many corresponding database products.
Comment 25 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 2017-10-15 10:29:16 UTC
*** Bug 38401 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 26 V Stuart Foote 2018-11-29 22:40:53 UTC
*** Bug 121809 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 27 Stian 2018-11-29 22:57:00 UTC
Damn, people have been asking for this since 2003! :-O

I find it very strange this wouldn't be implemented. Especially when the functionality is implemented in Calc. It seems logical to me that the source code in Calc for that functionality could be easily implemented into Writer.

About the file format compliance. Since this hasn't been implemented or even made ready within the standard, I'd suggest making an extended ODT format (or not, it doesn't matter as long as it works in Libre Office). What matters is the feature implementation, really.
Comment 28 Roman Kuznetsov 2019-03-12 16:14:08 UTC

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 37134 ***
Comment 29 David 2019-07-14 11:33:07 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 30 Roland Hughes 2019-07-14 12:29:43 UTC
David is correct. Under Lotus WordPro a document was its own little file system contained within a file. Each tab was a document section so you could keep research notes, outlines, to-do, and make each chapter of a book its own tab. A book could be re-arranged by dragging the tabs to change the order. When printing you were allowed to select a range of tabs for printing.

Another poster was correct in that it is much like the "sheets" concept of a spreadsheet.

What is important to understand is this wasn't just a navigation tool like the Navigator sidebar. It was a document organization tool. Instead of having to remember to copy an entire set of files when sending the document to a new machine there was one file conceptually consisting of many individual files. Custom styles were also contained within it. I believe it also had a "fat" document feature which could be turned on. The "fat" document feature, much like that of Word Perfect, would also store the fonts within the document. Not just the name and family, but the entire font so a document could be moved to a completely different machine without fear of pagination and appearance getting scrambled by the new machine not having the correct fonts.

This is a real problem today with LO. If you are creating a document on a Debian based machine which has the t1-cyrillic font set and send it to OpenSuSE or some other RPM based distro machine where that font package isn't in the repos one must jump through quite a few hoops to get the fonts installed on the machine.

Microsoft Word users rarely face this issue because they tend to be far less creative, using only the fonts bundled with Word and Windows.

According to this link,
https://www.file-extensions.org/lwp-file-extension
LO already supports the LWP file format. I'm actually okay with LO fleshing out the LWP support completely and only enabling these features when using the LWP file format.
Comment 31 V Stuart Foote 2019-07-14 13:40:58 UTC
Agree. => NEW

bug 37134 as see also, much of the framework needed to provide Tabbed UI (holding Page, Section, Division, MasterDoc elements) would first need to be fleshed out with a proper MDI

Both need extensive UX design and development effort.
Comment 32 Roland Hughes 2019-07-14 14:49:23 UTC
Please focus on the Lotus SmartSuite 98 version. This was when the product ran on both Windows and OS/2 and was pretty much the hay day of the software.

Honestly, until I did this search I didn't know IBM didn't officially kill the product until 2014.

https://archive.org/details/LotusSmartSuite99

Don't know if I would trust the download link on that site though. It "looks" like an official IBM download. I would be surprised if IBM just dumped it onto the PC market for free, but IBM sold off the PC business quite some time ago so it is possible.

Ebay seems to have some legitimate copies.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/3768/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=lotus+smartsuite

I've not used it, but Scrivener has some of the same capabilities.
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/overview

I would be very careful where one installs it. Lots of people making claims like this ebay item.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-LOTUS-1-2-3-SMARTSUITE-9-7-Organizer-Approach-Word-Pro-Windows-XP-7-8-10/143282147342?hash=item215c48100e:g:qc0AAOSwnONZBBAC

I had a Windows 7 ultimate edition I did manage to install it on. Other version of Windows it would jack up. Maybe Windows 10 got a bit better about being backwardly compatible with software really written for 98 and barely updated to run on 2k? Best to set up a VM with an old copy of 98 or 2k.

There is a really long message thread here:
http://www.matnewman.com/webs/personal/matblog.nsf/dx/a-quiet-farewell-lotus-1-2-3-organizer-and-smartsuite?opendocument&comments

It's about all things Lotus Organizer and Lotus Smartsuite by professionals and journalists who still use it. It appears some are successfully installing it on Windows 10.

If you are "significantly reworking the UI" then you might want to take a good look at Lotus Organizer
https://www.revolvy.com/page/IBM-Lotus-Organizer?cr=1
as well as the Smart Center or Command Center (name depends on who you ask.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lotus_SmartCenter_9.8_with_open_drawers.png

The file cabinet drawers were a really nice touch. It made everything feel completely integrated, especially with Organizer and email. It was and is much nicer than opening the LibreOffice main application and getting a list of apps down the side and a screen full of document images.

Just my 0.002
Comment 33 Heiko Tietze 2019-07-15 07:14:59 UTC
(In reply to David from comment #29)
> This bug most definitely is not a duplicate of bug 37134.  Bug 37134
> concerns having each document as a tab within a single application window. 
> This bug is about sections of a document being displayed as tabs within the
> document.

The screenshots show a different situation. What I understand by " sections of a document being displayed" separately is what MSO has where you can split the scrollbar.
Comment 34 Roland Hughes 2019-07-15 09:08:46 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #33)
> (In reply to David from comment #29)
> > This bug most definitely is not a duplicate of bug 37134.  Bug 37134
> > concerns having each document as a tab within a single application window. 
> > This bug is about sections of a document being displayed as tabs within the
> > document.
> 
> The screenshots show a different situation. What I understand by " sections
> of a document being displayed" separately is what MSO has where you can
> split the scrollbar.

That would be an incorrect understanding. The screenshot uploaded 2016-05-26 clearly shows a completely different situation.

I'm several weeks away from finishing my current contract and going home. When I get home I will actually write a multi-part document and take screen shots for you. I may even burn a few days attempting to install SmartSuite under Wine.
Comment 35 V Stuart Foote 2019-10-23 21:01:52 UTC
*** Bug 121809 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 36 Xisco Faulí 2019-11-29 13:27:07 UTC
Changing priority back to 'medium' since the number of duplicates is lower than 5
Comment 37 Todd 2019-11-29 13:32:51 UTC
(In reply to Xisco Faulí from comment #36)
> Changing priority back to 'medium' since the number of duplicates is lower
> than 5

Comments 17, 23, 25, 26, 28, 35 makes six duplicates.  Please place the priority back to high.
Comment 38 Roland Hughes 2019-11-29 13:33:52 UTC
(In reply to Xisco Faulí from comment #36)
> Changing priority back to 'medium' since the number of duplicates is lower
> than 5

Please return to high priority. Allowing duplicates to rot into oblivion isn't reducing the importance of this bug or improving the product.
Comment 39 Roland Hughes 2019-11-29 13:35:27 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 40 Heiko Tietze 2019-12-01 08:42:32 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 41 Heiko Tietze 2019-12-05 08:27:20 UTC
I don't see the advantage over the Navigator [1] or master documents [2]. Users who are familiar with one kind of interaction may prefer this but there is no requirement missing, AFAICS. So the suggestion is to not change what we have (and where other users are familiar with).
And while we have some interest in the topic, it's at the same time quite old and of less importance for the whole product. So setting back to medium.

[1] https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/swriter/guide/arrange_chapters.html?&DbPAR=WRITER&System=UNIX
[2] https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/swriter/guide/globaldoc_howtos.html?DbPAR=WRITER#bm_id3145246
Comment 42 Todd 2019-12-06 06:03:31 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #41)
> I don't see the advantage over the Navigator [1] or master documents [2].
> Users who are familiar with one kind of interaction may prefer this but
> there is no requirement missing, AFAICS. So the suggestion is to not change
> what we have (and where other users are familiar with).
> And while we have some interest in the topic, it's at the same time quite
> old and of less importance for the whole product. So setting back to medium.

Heiko,

I am the original porter (OP) of this request.

I do constantly used both.  In my technical opinion, although your are absolutely correct, both do work, your method is a good 10 times more difficult to use and is not as intuitive to the user.  Please do not look at this a "we already have a way, don't fix what is not broken", but as "how can we make this more user friendly". If you like doing thing the obscure, difficult way, leave the current method in place as an alternative.

You already support tabs in Calc, so add the feature to Writer should be a piece of cake.

It would be wonderful if you would institute this request and would EVER fix the envelope printing, then I and others could FINALLY get off the DEFUNCT Word Pro, which works better than Writer and has been dead and unsupported for about 20 years or so.

This is what tabs looks like in Calc.  Here are two tabs.  One is "January" and its 1:1 text is "Month 1"; the second its "February" and its 1:1 text is "Month 02":

   <table:table table:name="January" table:style-name="ta1">
    <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/>
    <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1">
     <table:table-cell office:value-type="string" calcext:value-type="string">
      <text:p>Month 01</text:p>
     </table:table-cell>
    </table:table-row>
   </table:table>

   <table:table table:name="Feburary" table:style-name="ta1">
    <table:table-column table:style-name="co1" table:default-cell-style-name="Default"/>
    <table:table-row table:style-name="ro1">
     <table:table-cell office:value-type="string" calcext:value-type="string">
      <text:p>Month 02</text:p>
     </table:table-cell>
    </table:table-row>
   </table:table>


You now have an army of folks also requesting this, so it is time it got implemented.

Many thanks,
-T
Comment 43 Heiko Tietze 2019-12-06 07:38:51 UTC
No question that we have to improve the Navigator, a proposal is here [1]. But despite all the shortcommings the basic way of dealing with content is working well. From the WYSIWYG point of view I doubt that putting content in tabbed sections is working well for the majority of users. And there are also many requests to have tabs for multiple documents in one app that would clash with your proposal.

[1] https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/07/31/how-the-navigator-may-support-object-handling-in-libreoffice-draw/
Comment 44 Todd 2019-12-06 11:18:05 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #43)
> No question that we have to improve the Navigator, a proposal is here [1].
> But despite all the shortcommings the basic way of dealing with content is
> working well. From the WYSIWYG point of view I doubt that putting content in
> tabbed sections is working well for the majority of users. And there are
> also many requests to have tabs for multiple documents in one app that would
> clash with your proposal.
> 

Hi Heiko,

I use both.  There is no comparison between the annoyance of the Navigator and effectiveness division tabs.  This is why you now have an army of folks requestion them.  I am not suggesting that you drop the navigator, but add the extra usability feature of Division Tabs.  And of course, add the tabs into the Navigator as well.

I am a consultant to small business.  I have installed installed LibreOffice on probably a hundred client's computers.  I only have one company that uses LibreOffice and another that half uses it.  Everyone else has removed it in favour of you-know-who, which I also sell.  Part of the reason is that they don't want to learn anything new, which you can do nothing about.  The other part is of the reason is that so many of the features are difficult and obscure to use.  Please take your users input and try to make LibreOffice better.

If you keep digging your feet in, your will continue to loose users.  I don't loose them, I just sell the you-know-who from the evil empire.

Thank you for your consideration,
-T
Comment 45 Roland Hughes 2019-12-06 12:21:42 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #41)
> I don't see the advantage over the Navigator [1] or master documents [2].
> Users who are familiar with one kind of interaction may prefer this but
> there is no requirement missing, AFAICS. So the suggestion is to not change
> what we have (and where other users are familiar with).
> And while we have some interest in the topic, it's at the same time quite
> old and of less importance for the whole product. So setting back to medium.
> 
> [1]
> https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/swriter/guide/arrange_chapters.
> html?&DbPAR=WRITER&System=UNIX
> [2]
> https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/swriter/guide/globaldoc_howtos.
> html?DbPAR=WRITER#bm_id3145246

Well, first you would have to begin to understand that comparing Navigator and master documents to TABBED DIVISIONS is like comparing pre-1700 flintlocks to nuclear weapons.

Please do not assume a tab is a tab is a tab is a tab. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If yourself and the powers that be want LO to never be more than something to write letters home to mom from summer camp with, then so be it. These are the kinds of word processors that don't get donations from people who write as part of their living. I used to donate but I stopped a while back when it became obvious LO wasn't interested in chasing the market of professional writers. Am I wrong?

I've written quite a few books over the years. Not as many as some, but more than most, especially those who utter the phrase "I have half a novel in a drawer somewhere."

http://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/

I will be the first to admit LO has achieved the functionality (sans reveal codes) of Word Perfect 3 for DOS. Laying out a book was nearly impossible, but it was the best we had. It forced us to use the archaic manuscript format with a lot of publisher specific back-end processing.

Most will probably admit LO has achieved the functionality (sans reveal codes) of Word Perfect 5 for OS/2. Laying out a book was somewhat ham fisted, but it was a Godsend compared to other tools. That's the word processor I used to create this title:

https://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/zincit_book.html

The original draft (which took a year of writing) for this book
https://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/app_book.html
was written with Lotus WordPro. You may wish to note that it is on Dr. Dobb's list of recommended reading for all developers:
https://www.drdobbs.com/tools/developers-reading-list/232500396?pgno=6

I can tell you that book would have never been written, or at least completed, without tabbed divisions to store all research in. The final version had to be ported to Word Perfect because LWP didn't have a built in PDF creator and the reasonably priced "fake printer drivers" which generated PDF files weren't worth a fart in the wind back then.

The professional writer's market has been screaming for the return of LWP for a very long time. IBM simply doesn't care about the PC market anymore. Your Navigator came from IBM. They wanted a new editor for Lotus Notes and OO simply wasn't even close to the task. Once they had Lotus Symphony working quite well, they promptly abandoned it just like they abandoned Lotus SmartSuite when it was a mighty fine office suite.

How bad has the professional writing world been screaming? So much so that a company has launched a Windows and Mac only off-shoot. They didn't keep the Linux beta. I see they've learned their lesson about pricing now too.
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/store/scrivener?tab=Windows

When I first looked into that they were charging Word Perfect professional edition prices. Yeah, I have a lot of copies of Word Perfect laying around. Any time a client forces me to put the virus known as Windows on one of my machines. For professional writing I don't touch Microsoft products, not if I can avoid it.

Professional writers have a short list of things they need.

Running page headers and footers which are specific to a page style. (LO has this)

A decent spell checker (LO using external thing which isn't as good as the spell checkers for most commercial word processors, at least it isn't for American English. Probably has a lot to do with the thing trying to stuff British into the same dictionary. There's American and there is British. They are remarkably different.)

Nice selection of fonts (LO has this)

Automatic grammar checker which flags odd spacing, double words, etc.(Jury still out on this.)

TABBED DOCUMENT DIVISIONS to store research, deleted scenes, etc. in within the same document file YET CAN BE INDIVIDUALLY HIDDEN FROM PRINTING AND EXPORTING. Draggable so each tabbed division can contain a chapter. Re-arranging chapters is simply moving tabs. The word processor must recognize tab moves and update page numbering accordingly. Likewise, when a tab is hidden, no matter where it is, it's pages are not counted during page numbering.  (LO doesn't have anything remotely close to this.)

Ability to generate an acceptable to Barnes & Noble as well as other sites EPUB from visible content. (LO does not have this. Yeah, there's an extension
https://extensions.libreoffice.org/extensions/writer2epub
but it got 399 downvotes for a reason.)

Ability to directly generate a PDF which a commercial printing house can directly consume. (LO pretty much has this. I haven't had one be rejected in years, perhaps others still have issues, but I don't)

Envelop and label printing because we have to send a lot of stuff physically. (LO seems sporadic here. I don't know for certain because I stopped using it for envelops and labels years ago given all of the problems.)

That's really it.

Utopia would be the ability to turn on/run through, a complete Chicago Manual of Style check, but that is Utopia.

Please take some time looking up the titles found here: 

http://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/

on bn.com for page count and release dates. Also note that this title

https://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/app_book.html

and this title

https://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/soa_book.html

are award winning. None of the others are. Want to know why? I used LWP to create them, then I suffered all of the ham-fisted conversion issues to get them into electronic forms remote editors and print houses could use.

All of the others either used WP or OO or LO. They aren't award winning because of the tools. I got tired of all the ham-fisted conversion issues. I also didn't know the tricks for getting LWP installed on newer versions of Windows in VMs and Wine was hit or miss.

The result of using tools that are not up to the task, research, undecided content, scraps, and clippings all had to be stored in separate files/directories. When you are moving around to various office desktops at various locations around the country, and back and forth to laptops, guess what happens? ()*&(* gets lost. Project backups start getting incomplete because you have to keep remembering what is and isn't important.

Yes, my technical book series covers some obscure topics. It isn't going to put me in Harry Potter money, but it needs to be written to keep systems functioning that everybody depends on. (I don't know the current states, but, excluding Russia, at one point OpenVMS was the OS running every nuclear power plant in the world as well as most of the steel and paper mills. It's still a really high percentage and the knowledge needs to be passed on.)

While twenty-something me would never have admitted this, fifty-something me knows it to be obvious truth: 

You can't really design a word processor until you've been a professional writer and professional means a whole lot more than just getting paid to do it.

Putting soap box back in the closet now.
Comment 46 Roland Hughes 2019-12-06 12:28:59 UTC
(In reply to Todd from comment #44)
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #43)
> > No question that we have to improve the Navigator, a proposal is here [1].
> > But despite all the shortcommings the basic way of dealing with content is
> > working well. From the WYSIWYG point of view I doubt that putting content in
> > tabbed sections is working well for the majority of users. And there are
> > also many requests to have tabs for multiple documents in one app that would
> > clash with your proposal.
> > 
> 
> Hi Heiko,
> 
> I use both.  There is no comparison between the annoyance of the Navigator
> and effectiveness division tabs.  This is why you now have an army of folks
> requestion them.  I am not suggesting that you drop the navigator, but add
> the extra usability feature of Division Tabs.  And of course, add the tabs
> into the Navigator as well.
> 
> I am a consultant to small business.  I have installed installed LibreOffice
> on probably a hundred client's computers.  I only have one company that uses
> LibreOffice and another that half uses it.  Everyone else has removed it in
> favour of you-know-who, which I also sell.  Part of the reason is that they
> don't want to learn anything new, which you can do nothing about.  The other
> part is of the reason is that so many of the features are difficult and
> obscure to use.  Please take your users input and try to make LibreOffice
> better.
> 
> If you keep digging your feet in, your will continue to loose users.  I
> don't loose them, I just sell the you-know-who from the evil empire.
> 

I would like to point out that Lotus SmartSuite didn't fail in the marketplace. IBM and Microsoft were having a tiff over the Windows code in OS/2. Microsoft pulled all of their developers from the IBM location (somewhere down near Florida if I remember correctly) and IBM did not have the staff or institutional knowledge to maintain OS/2. The SmartSuite team was located there as well. It ran on both OS/2 and Windows. It lost a lot of members and knowledge as well. The remaining staff got rolled into the Notes team/group and SmartSuite was sunset.

IBM has a looooong history of sunsetting PC products which are industry leaders because upper management only wants to focus on mainframes and services.
Comment 47 Roland Hughes 2019-12-06 12:39:01 UTC
This needs to return to high priority.

It cannot be done in an AGILE hacking on the fly manner. It has to be architected.

What also __really__ needs to happen is ensure LO has __all__ of the lwp file support from Lotus Symphony. I remember Symphony handling lwp waaaay better than LO currently does.

Ummmm Could the person who uses LWP most days find a nice complex and large lwp document which could be released publicly? Something with numerous tabbed divisions, some hidden, some not. Images. Running page headers and footers. etc.

In short, do you have a book you never finished/published that you don't mind tossing up here where it will eventually be found by someone who will put it on Lulu.com for sale without giving you a dime? I go through that with this Java book.

https://theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/xbase_book.html

I wrote and donated the book to the xBaseJ project. It's included in their download and available as a free PDF elsewhere, yet I continually have to scan Lulu.com and other "upload and go" book sites that check absolutely nothing because people keep trying to sell a POD printed version for $35.

I checked my remaining lwp files the other day. The only files I still have left is documentation I did for Navistar. The systems are still in use and the company is still in business, so those can't be placed in the wild. They also weren't complex enough.
Comment 48 Todd 2019-12-06 23:23:18 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 49 Roland Hughes 2020-01-26 19:29:53 UTC
For a more in-depth explanation of Division and Sections you can visit a blog I wrote this weekend actually using WordPro on Windows 10 in a VM.

http://www.logikalsolutions.com/wordpress/information-technology/thank-you-for-your-future-abandonware/
Comment 50 luciano_f 2020-08-18 13:53:14 UTC
I am also very interested in this Guides feature that would make LibreOffice very powerful and I don’t see it as something so complex to develop because it’s just Layout.

Even OnyOffice already has this functionality.

https://www.onlyoffice.com/en/

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dRhyfe1x7fM/WOIXKpGfBDI/AAAAAAAAJiI/Ae0hxxJx3DsWUWgKVT_88nH-dqdKxiszwCLcB/s1600/Screenshot%2Bfrom%2B2017-04-02%2B21-35-31.png

Thankful.
Comment 51 Todd 2020-08-18 18:54:10 UTC
(In reply to luciano_f from comment #50)
> I am also very interested in this Guides feature that would make LibreOffice
> very powerful and I don’t see it as something so complex to develop because
> it’s just Layout.
> 
> Even OnyOffice already has this functionality.
> 
> https://www.onlyoffice.com/en/
> 
> https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dRhyfe1x7fM/WOIXKpGfBDI/AAAAAAAAJiI/
> Ae0hxxJx3DsWUWgKVT_88nH-dqdKxiszwCLcB/s1600/Screenshot%2Bfrom%2B2017-04-
> 02%2B21-35-31.png
> 
> Thankful.

I am not seeing division tabs in your screen shot.

The Firefox style tabs at the top are sweet and I'd like to see them in LO, but they are not division tabs.  Division tabs on in the document
Comment 52 V Stuart Foote 2020-08-18 19:41:05 UTC
(In reply to Todd from comment #51)
> (In reply to luciano_f from comment #50)
> > ...
> > https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dRhyfe1x7fM/WOIXKpGfBDI/AAAAAAAAJiI/
> > Ae0hxxJx3DsWUWgKVT_88nH-dqdKxiszwCLcB/s1600/Screenshot%2Bfrom%2B2017-04-
> > 02%2B21-35-31.png
> > 
> 
> I am not seeing division tabs in your screen shot.
> 
> The Firefox style tabs at the top are sweet and I'd like to see them in LO,
> but they are not division tabs.  Division tabs on in the document

Right, that is the Tabbed UI -- MDI of see also bug 37134, not tabbed document sections as here.
Comment 53 Roland Hughes 2020-11-12 13:06:13 UTC
I haven't looked to see if LO has been updated/reported to it yet or not. Just adding this info here because it was news to me.

OS/2 is back from the grave.

https://www.theregister.com/2017/05/19/new_version_of_os_2_arca_os_5/

https://www.arcanoae.com/wp-content/uploads/wiki/ArcaOS50_InstallationGuide.pdf

https://www.arcanoae.com/shop/arcaos-5-personal-edition/

It is an option for your Lotus WordPro.
Comment 54 Todd 2020-11-13 04:57:43 UTC
I use the Windows version with Wine on Fedora 33.  It has a few quirks, but it is still far more usable than Libre Office.   Fixing this bug would go a long way to getting Libre Office to catch up to Word Pro
Comment 55 himan khare 2021-07-08 11:00:29 UTC Comment hidden (spam)
Comment 56 V Stuart Foote 2021-10-06 23:54:18 UTC
*** Bug 144946 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 57 V Stuart Foote 2023-03-24 16:41:48 UTC
*** Bug 38401 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 58 Toby 2023-07-09 01:20:48 UTC
*** Bug 156204 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 59 Apocalypse612 2024-08-02 21:55:23 UTC
In my opinion, this is vital for any office app. Please implement. Thank you and God bless.
Comment 60 golemus 2024-10-18 20:15:44 UTC
The only program left that I use on regular basis that does not have tabs is Libreoffice. (now even Windows notepad has it as has file explorer, command prompt, etc..).

It would be really cool if this was implemented.

Most logical place for tabs (at least in windows) would be at the very top above file, edit, view menus in the title bar as tabs are there in majority of other apps.
Comment 61 Heiko Tietze 2024-10-21 09:37:34 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 62 V Stuart Foote 2024-11-17 14:34:57 UTC
*** Bug 163925 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 63 Senna-sport 2024-11-17 14:46:35 UTC
Hello, glad to see that I am not alone wishing for this VERY useful and relevant feature!!!

That would really create a difference for the users, and in comparison to other current Text/Word Processing solutions!!!!

Having tabs (like in spreadsheets) within Writer files that can act as Chapters or Sections, etc... whatever you like... would be so awesome!!!
Comment 64 Senna-sport 2024-11-22 10:11:19 UTC
Hi Dear Friends, here an update to this request:


I do indeed fully confirm that the bug number corresponding to my request is actually the number #33173.

The idea is to have "Tabs for sections and divisions (like e.g. Chapters in particular) within THE wordprocessing document file ITSELF".

Of course it is probably a question of file format. But why not creating a different file format, even if not standardized at the begining, so that at least this feature becomes technically possible? Even if LO is the only one to do it and even if not compatible directly at the beginning with other solutions or formats? We must start somewhere, no? It would just be another file format added to LO even if not the main, central format by default... And even if Beta and labelled like this? (Note: Google kept the Beta label on Google Maps even as recently as 4 years ago or so if I am right...). 


Like very well explained in the following blog article written just 4 days ago by Roland Hughes who also posted here several times on this specific bug number:
https://interestingauthors.com/blog/technology/libreoffice/

And yes, it is NOT a niche feature.

Targets:
Academics
All institutions in the world writing Reports
Book publishers and writers
PHD Students
Post and undergraduate Students writing Thesis, reports, or any students organizing their courses, notes, summaries, etc...
All private and public companies
Individuals organizing their writings, thoughts, documents, inputs, notes, etc...

Thank you!
Comment 65 Senna-sport 2024-11-22 10:15:04 UTC
Addendum:

And it is just crazy to see that a feature that was existing 35 years ago isn't available anymore... !!!