Description: Japanese text inside formula text bar is not readable. I guess it's problematic font or somtheing else, because inside cells with font Meiryo 9pt it is perfectly fine. Windows 10, display scaling is 100% across the system. Latin languages are fine, problem is with japanese, probably chinese too. Formula bar is unaffected by font, that is chosen for cell, so no way to change it. Steps to Reproduce: 1. Set Windows display scaling to 100% 2. Write any japanese text into cell, eg.: 瑤泉院はそれに激高し不忠臣の焼香など殿は望まない 3. Select that cell 4. Look at formula bar, where cell text is supposed to be edited Actual Results: hieroglyph font is almost impossible to read Expected Results: formula bar japanese text is readable Reproducible: Always User Profile Reset: No Additional Info: Version: 7.5.0.3 (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: c21113d003cd3efa8c53188764377a8272d9d6de CPU threads: 12; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 19045; UI render: Skia/Vulkan; VCL: win Locale: ru-RU (ru_RU); UI: ru-RU Calc: CL threaded Latin languages are ok. When clicking on formula text bar, font becomes wider and a bit more readable. F2 can be used as a workaround. I’ve looked up for possible solutions. Seems like feature to change this font size was removed, font is managed by OS. Problem is in all apps including Calc fonts are fine, except japanese in formula bar, and there is no easy way to scale UI for only one program in Windows.
Created attachment 185470 [details] Screenshot
Created attachment 185471 [details] Screenshot2
This is yet another example demonstrating that users need an option to set the font type and font size for the formula bar. Adding UX.
I don't fully understand what is expected (width or height, first of all). But the sheer number of requests supports the claim for an option. See for example bug 88141, bug 95406, bug 127655 (I suggest to duplicate all into one). Question is whether we should allow full customization (font name, size, weight, color...) or just the size (and adjust the formula bar height accordingly).
Us fixing our font rendering would address the issues highlighted in attachment 185470 [details] and 185471 without the need of yet another customization feature that doesn’t communicate with anything else, IMHO
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme Barrientos from comment #5) > without the need of yet another > customization feature that doesn’t communicate with anything else, IMHO Just a side note... IDK what "communicate with anything else" means. FWIW, I don't have to deal with CTL fonts on a daily basis myself, but since the UI scaling was gone, I have difficulties reading the formula bar content clearly. Since then, I am always using the OS's zoom features when I have to read the content of the formula bar, while I change it again for the rest of the UI (i.e. back and forth). Having the font type and font size of the content of the formula bar configurable / adjustable would greatly increase my ease-of-use and productivity with Calc. There are so many reports with either direct requesting the possibility of formula bar customization, or, worse, reporting some problematic glitch in the formula bar... Anyway, back to this specific bug report.
(In reply to ady from comment #6) > Just a side note... IDK what "communicate with anything else" means. It means, if you find that font size unreadable, since it’s the same font size used in other UI widgets, then those other places are → potentially ← unreadable too (not considering aspects like visual memory devices and muscle memory that aid in a user interface’s usability). I’m aware that many system/UI fonts are subpar for scripts different from Latin, Greek and Cyrillic, especially on outdated Windows systems. Nevertheless, I just don’t see how it’s beneficial to go through the effort of developing a customization option just for this singular widget. I’d rather have it follow whatever font and size it’s used in the currently selected cell, which would solve the perceived problem with no need of an option that has to be set separately from other UI options.
The inputwin.hxx/.cxx was intentionally aligned to UI scale as for but 127066 Meaning the sc inputwin.hxx/.cxx widget currently responds to system font settings, meaning it is trivial to scale the font for os/DE and get large font rendering of system font. Meaning that in Win10/Win11 from Windows Settings -> Display -> 'Make text bigger' and drag the size slider greater or smaller. And this is a => WFM Likewise the sw inputwin.hxx/.cxx for table formulas on Writer. Of course what would be helpful is ability to assign both a font (other than os/DE system) and a font size to the "input bar", see also bug 88141 and bug 95406 Or more broadly reintroduction of support for global LibreOffice UI scaling as for bug 101646
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme Barrientos from comment #7) > I’d > rather have it follow whatever font and size it’s used in the currently > selected cell That's a terrible idea. A user might have a bigger font in one cell just as a Title or Caption, and a variety of font sizes for other cells, such as those less important, those that include totals... Every user might have different reasons to customize the cells in different ways. But that is not the same as the usage of the formula bar. I can't imagine having the formula bar changing for each cell; that would be chaotic, and eventually nobody would change any cell's font at all? No, they won't use LO Calc. (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #8) > Meaning that in Win10/Win11 from Windows Settings -> Display -> 'Make text > bigger' and drag the size slider greater or smaller. I already have that setting modified in the OS. As a user, I set it in some "balance" point, where I can read clearly _every_ aspect of the OS interface. If I have to set it even bigger, just for the formula bar, it would make some other places in my OS "too big" and it won't fit in the place where it allows me to see the complete text (i.e. part of it will be hidden by other artifacts). Other widgets in LO might be more static, either in place or in content to be read. I don't need to read the title of a dialog window every single time, and it doesn't change every time either. Same for icons and alike. The content of the formula bar changes for every cell, sometimes with very large formulas. For most Calc users that come here to either report problems or request the possibility of customization of the formula bar, the matter is not about changing some OS setting (zoom, dpi, screen resolution, font size). We already do all this, and the settings for the OS are not all about the formula bar in Calc; there are other factors to consider. If there is some objective impediment to have the formula bar customization regarding font type and size, then please say so. You are of course welcome to suggest other possibilities such as OS customization. But please don't take that possibility as the ultimate best and only solution available, because it is not. I know because I already use such possibilities, and I still have problems with the formula bar (which is why I use the OS zoom every time I need to read a long formula, where using F2 is not always the best alternative, for several reasons). And after saying that, clearly the OP is presenting an additional point. Changing OS settings will affect everything, not just the formula bar when it contains CTL glyphs. Making _everything_ bigger just because such situation? Then you would have other users claiming that there is too much empty space, or fonts too big. Oh, how they would dare! With so many reports asking for some kind of modification in the formula bar, in one direction or another, or to solve some quirk or glitch, I don't see how the request can be still discarded as some meaningless "nice to have" feature. This is not just "nice to have". This is not "I just like some different color, just for fun". This is a functional, practical, UX, efficiency-related and accessibility request. And to that, add the CTL problem presented in this bug report. > Of course what would be helpful is ability to assign both a font (other than > os/DE system) and a font size to the "input bar", see also bug 88141 and bug > 95406 > > Or more broadly reintroduction of support for global LibreOffice UI scaling > as for bug 101646 I don't see as many reports about problems or RFE regarding the _whole_ UI scale as there are regarding the formula bar specifically. I could be wrong.
(In reply to ady from comment #9) > I already have that setting modified in the OS. As a user, I set it in some > "balance" point, where I can read clearly _every_ aspect of the OS > interface. If I have to set it even bigger, just for the formula bar, it > would make some other places in my OS "too big" and it won't fit in the > place where it allows me to see the complete text (i.e. part of it will be > hidden by other artifacts). > Again, OP looks to have os/DE system at 100% -- too small. The Win10/Win11 Settings -> Display -> 'Make text bigger' control in the os/DE provides exactly the adjustment needed for this issue. Similar UI controls in macOS and the various Linux os/DEs. Not every adjustment must be in the LibreOffice UI, but there is room tweak the UI to use "other than os/DE system UI font" and also to extablish a different fontsize for the inputwin.hxx/.cxx of the 'Formula Bar' widget. Again this is => WFM, and the other BZ issues are already open for the "tweaks".
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #10) > (In reply to ady from comment #9) > The Win10/Win11 Settings -> Display -> 'Make text bigger' control in the > os/DE provides exactly the adjustment needed for this issue. As I already mentioned, I already have adjustments to that OS's control, among others, and I still have the need to use the OS's zoom feature when I need to read the formula bar. So, please, I am asking you to be more flexible in the terminology. It _can_ help, but it is not the ultimate solution; it might not be enough. That OS's setting affects other areas of the OS's UI, and other programs too. Claiming that users can freely keep making that setting higher and higher (or lower and lower for this particular ticket) is not realistic; yes, some users could, but there are other reasons not to modify it (more than it has been). The formula bar in Calc is not the only factor to be considered when modifying that setting. This is the reason for the recurring requests in several tickets, either for accessibility reasons, for convenience, or for reduction of UI glitches. > > Similar UI controls in macOS and the various Linux os/DEs. > > Not every adjustment must be in the LibreOffice UI, but there is room tweak > the UI to use "other than os/DE system UI font" and also to extablish a > different fontsize for the inputwin.hxx/.cxx of the 'Formula Bar' widget. > > Again this is => WFM, and the other BZ issues are already open for the > "tweaks". The WFM definition would need, IMHO, more input/feedback from the OP (iaganicshe). According to the report, the CTL font that is being shown in the formula bar is not adequate ATM in/for that system. You seem to suggest, IIUC, that the System/OS font should be modified for this, and that the current defaults in LO are ideal for every_and_all configurations/systems (i.e. "just change the system's configurations"). I assume some users won't like/agree with that idea, just for Calc's formula bar, or they might have a different default language (not CTL) for the system/OS. It might be helpful to have the OP's feedback.
I have default Windows font for japanese which is Meiryo. Changing default font for specific language is not that easy. I don't like "Making text bigger across the system" solution, it makes using other apps inconvenient. For example vertical work space in Firefox is reduced significantly. I don't think it's a rendering problem. 9pt cells with 100% scaling look almost the same, and they are also unreadable. For cells I set font to 11pt and scaling to 120% to work comfortably. But formula bar cannot be scaled. Its font size is the same as other UI elements. Just for hieroglyphs that size is too small, as they contain more pixels.
(In reply to iaganicshe from comment #12) > I have default Windows font for japanese which is Meiryo. > Changing default font for specific language is not that easy. > I don't like "Making text bigger across the system" solution, it makes using > other apps inconvenient. For example vertical work space in Firefox is > reduced significantly. "don't like" ≠ not able > I don't think it's a rendering problem. 9pt cells with 100% scaling look > almost the same, and they are also unreadable. For cells I set font to 11pt > and scaling to 120% to work comfortably. agree, not a rendering issue > But formula bar cannot be scaled. Its font size is the same as other UI > elements. Just for hieroglyphs that size is too small, as they contain more > pixels. Understood, and that is the nature of fonts with "coverage" of mixed usage. Meiryo is Microsoft developed for jp-JP use. When its character height is reduced too far the Kanji looks deformed. Open the UI font scale just a bit to get better rendering for applications like LibreOffice that do not provide direct UI scaling like the "enhancements" of the See Also BZ issues listed above. Only those enhancements would address this issue directly, otherwise the os/DE must be scaled, here as provided by Microsoft.
bug 88141 is for ability to adjust the size of the font in only the inputwin of the Formula bar, independent of the entire UI or os/DE bug 95406 is for ability to change the font used on the input win. bug 101646 is for LO controlled scaling of the the entire UI -- distinct from the UI scaling os/DE provides. If I were to dupe rather than => NAB, I would say UX issue here is a dupe of bug 88141 -- just need ability to bump up the font size in the Formula bar.
Created attachment 185517 [details] screenshot Calc I think the request for a larger font in the formula bar is reasonable. I use Windows with 120% screen scaling. My screenshot shows, that even with the better rendering of black font on white background, the glyphs in the formula bar are not clear enough.
Created attachment 185523 [details] 10pt Meiryo and Win10 os/DE display control "Make text bigger" at 125% So reasonable UI values can be set using os/DE controls. Win10 in Dark mode with Meiryo and Meiryo UI installed. font size in cells at 10pt; UI elements: column headings, other UI text scaled 125%, and the inputwin of the Formula bar. So, while it would be nice RFE to allow this element to be scaled independent of os/DE it is "functional" os/DE provided feature. NTL the enhancement would be helpful as defaults for the os/DE should not *have* to be tweaked.
We could a) stick to the OS/DE: this means NAB b) add an option to tools > options > calc > view: this inflates the options dialog further c) have some kind of interaction on the control, could be a drop down with a couple of font sizes or some ctrl+wheel response specifically on the control: with the drawback that this either holds only a limited number or is hard to figure out for average users d) follow the selected cell's font (maybe all attributes not just the size): does not work for multi-selection with varying content and in case of no selection; has also the drawback of a "jumping" UI e) follow the zoom factor on the sheet: not necessarily what users expect and, like all other options messing-up with the UI, makes the UI imbalanced (thinking of the size of associated icons left-hand and the range selector); plus in multi-line mode with an enlarged font it could become too large f) show the content somewhere else, eg. the functions pane in the sidebar or as balloon tip when hovering over the cell: the formula bar is not intended as "text viewer" for very long text in cells So what is the exact use case that cannot be solved with the formula bar? Reading bug 88141 it seems the user enters long text in cells, which is cut off because of content in neighboring cells and cannot become wrapped for some reason, and uses the formula bar to just read the content.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17) > > b) add an option to tools > options > calc > view: this inflates the options > dialog further > Actually there is plenty of room on the Tools -> Options -> LO Calc -> View panel to add a Formula Bar section. Including a UI font size "Zoom" as for this (we did similar for the sm input win bug 130654). But an options -> view would allow an opportunity to restore a UI means to set a value for the line count shown in the Formula bar (the per document value 'FormulaBarHeight' [1-25 with default of 6] for bug 99708).
*** Bug 88141 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
We discussed this topic in the design meeting. a) some comments here are towards resolving as NAB The UI should be kept clean; however, at least based on the number of requests the desire is clear b) add an option to tools > options > calc > view This would be a simple solution but likely not usable as the needed font size in the formula bar depends on cell content. Plus, it inflates the options dialog further. c) have some kind of interaction on the control, could be a drop down with a couple of font sizes or some ctrl+wheel response specifically on the control This possible solution was not prioritized as it would be hard to figure out. d) follow the selected cell's font (maybe all attributes not just the size) Needs some work to make it working reliable (multi-selection) but will always end up in a jumping UI; was removed for bug 127066 e) follow the zoom factor on the sheet Not necessarily what users expect; but would be a straight-forward solution, easy to understand f) show the content somewhere else (or in a tooltip) Was not welcome as a good solution. The question is what issue exactly should be resolved. Make more content visible in the formula bar (the bar has an expander to show almost a novel) or make it better readable. Please elaborate the issue.
If I may (until the OP replies) (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #20) > We discussed this topic in the design meeting. > > a) some comments here are towards resolving as NAB > The UI should be kept clean; however, at least based on the number of > requests the desire is clear Browsing bug reports about the formula bar, we can find reports and/or requests for: * more vertical space * bigger font size * smaller font size * different font type * possibility to scale/zoom IMO, different users have different needs and different ways to express what they (think they) need. I would say that, in one way or another, users want the content of the formula bar to be more clear (to read and/or to edit). The only way to make that happen for most users is to provide flexibility in order for users to modify the formula bar according to their own context, limitations and needs. > > b) add an option to tools > options > calc > view > This would be a simple solution but likely not usable as the needed font > size in the formula bar depends on cell content. Plus, it inflates the > options dialog further. I'm not sure I understand why the font (type/size) for the formula bar depends as much on cell's content. There is indeed some relation, but the change doesn't seem _that_ extreme. When a cell uses, for instance, a mix of Western/Latin languages with RTL and/or CTL languages, the differences in resulting font sizes, while notable, are expected to be manageable by using a _slightly_ different font size in the formula bar. We are not talking about having to change from size 9 to size 18 just to compensate for the different resulting sizes between English letters and RTL/CTL glyphs. A user might decide to use a slightly-bigger font size in the formula bar, and another would choose a slightly-smaller one. Another user might think that using a bigger vertical size input window would be better for his context, while the font stays the same. And a fourth user picks a mono-spaced / fixed-width font for the formula bar with a slightly-bigger size just because the formulas are too long and he is trying to catch some typo by comparing adjacent cells with similar formulas in rapid sequence. I'm not saying that option "b" is the "right" one (it might or might not be). I'm just saying the sentence (relating the cell content to the formula bar font) here is not as clear as you might think. Perhaps it was clearer during your meeting(?). Or maybe I am misunderstanding or missing something. If that's the case, would you please enlighten me? > > c) have some kind of interaction on the control, could be a drop down with a > couple of font sizes or some ctrl+wheel response specifically on the control > This possible solution was not prioritized as it would be hard to figure out. That sounds as having (part of) the options directly on the UI, instead of (or in addition to) having them in the "tools > options > calc > view" dialog. With "hard to figure out", do you mean for developers to code? Or do you mean for users to be aware / to know how to use? If you mean for devs to figure out how to achieve this, I would guess that, from the POV of users, having the full options sooner would be preferable than having to wait who knows how much time just in order to have a partial control. If having the options as part of the dialog would not be enough, I would guess users would let you know. Again, users' POV only, and a guess only, so evidently the UX team has to balance additional factors. If you meant hard for users to figure out, then this would be just another item (of many) that would be less known by users, until it isn't. > > d) follow the selected cell's font (maybe all attributes not just the size) > Needs some work to make it working reliable (multi-selection) but will > always end up in a jumping UI; was removed for bug 127066 I already mentioned it, somewhere: having the content of the formula bar, or the formula bar itself, changing constantly on each movement from cell to cell is a terrible idea. For comparison, imagine having the "find next" button changing places each time you click on it – not just in LO, think about your web browser. This point "d" is much worse than that. Users' nightmare. > > e) follow the zoom factor on the sheet > Not necessarily what users expect; but would be a straight-forward solution, > easy to understand One thing is to have a zoom factor for the formula bar by itself (i.e. independent), and another one is to directly follow the same zoom factor as the main area. The latter is probably not a good idea for most use-cases Imagine a user having to zoom out in order to see the "big picture" of the main area of the worksheet. That doesn't mean that the content of the formula bar is not needed during that zoom-out. The formula bar would end up very small, and the content would not be readable at the moment. Imagine having to zoom-in to see more details in the main area. This is more common than you would think for visually-challenged users. The formula bar might end up occupying too much of the screen. It would be similar to having a freeze area of too-many rows for that zoom factor, in which almost no other rows are seen on screen, except for the freeze ones. Even if the zoom ratio wouldn't be 1:1 in comparison to the main area, the behavior would trigger users to complain, because users have different context, different circumstances and different needs. > > f) show the content somewhere else (or in a tooltip) > Was not welcome as a good solution. I'm not sure users want a second (or third, or fourth) place to read the content of the formula bar. If users need to edit the content of a cell, we either use F2 directly on the cell (mostly for simple editions of simple short content, but it could vary), or we use the Formula Wizard to review/edit arguments, or we edit directly on the formula bar. Whichever the case, we need clarity and consistent methodology (and I would add flexibility too). In the context of this RFE, I am not seeing how a tooltip would really help. Perhaps in some other context (which does exist), a tooltip with the possibility of setting font type and font size might help, but in this RFE, it doesn't really solve the issue, IMO. > > The question is what issue exactly should be resolved. Make more content > visible in the formula bar (the bar has an expander to show almost a novel) > or make it better readable. Please elaborate the issue. The formula bar is already expandable vertically. Currently, it is not possible to make the content more readable, which means that the font type and the font size for (the content of) the formula bar need to be adjustable. Some (fewer) users think that the font size is currently fine; but _many_ reports have been closed with "just use the OS's zoom features", or (much) worse "just change the OS's font scaling", as if this would have no effect on absolutely anything else. Hopefully others can provide feedback too.
(In reply to ady from comment #21) > Browsing bug reports about the formula bar, we can find reports and/or > requests for: ... more, bigger, smaller, different, possibility... > ... > Currently, it is not possible to make the content more readable... This discussion is an excellent example why use case and scenarios should be discussed not solutions. It all boils down to what users want to achieve. And I doubt it is as simple as readability in terms of "lean-back reading without glasses". Simplicity comes first, and every additional option makes the program less usable for the majority - while adding flexibility for a minority. "Hard to figure out" was meant for the users who cannot know a feature unless it is common practice, has some kind of indicator, is advertised explicitly (like per tip of the day) etc. The list of potential solutions is not necessarily a todo list, it just illustrates what we could think about.
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #22) > Simplicity comes first, and every additional option makes the program less > usable for the majority - while adding flexibility for a minority. The glyphs for Latin languages have frequently different height than the same size of fonts for CTL and RTL languages. This is common, not a corner case. Additionally, the amount of different reports, duplicates, RFE, forum posts... All related to the formula bar clarity/readability – whether expressed in terms of "height" or in terms of "font type" or in terms of "font size" or... - is not "small". Qualifying these users as a minority is not an accurate description, IMO. It is true that sometimes users describe the requests or problems in less-than-ideal terms. I am not pushing for one specific method or another. I am trying to describe the problem as clear as I can, especially considering the amount of reports regarding this subject. By mentioning some of the different types of requests regarding the same matter I am simply showing that perhaps _one_ direction (e.g. a fixed bigger font for everyone) might not be the most desirable solution. But that doesn't mean that the need for a solution would only satisfy a request for a minority. These requests are not from a minority, given the amount of them, especially since the UI scaling went away (and, just in case, I am not pushing for that specific alternative either).
@Heiko, we've done similar already for the sm Formula editor (see also 130654). The sm Command windows is not really different than the sc Formula bar (obviously completely different source to work against) but functionally the same use case. For the Formula Editor we've provided a direct scale value (10 - 999) -- set via expert configuration "smeditwindowzoom" and also on the UI with Tools -> Options -> LO Math "Scaling code input window" spin box. As with the sm module, we would not resize the Formula Bar (beyond current height drag by line count), we would just scale the font within existing frame and the formula/text will continue to wrap as now. IMHO that's going to be an 80%+ solution for the ask, all use cases, and hopefully would be easy hackable. Point is--we have the precedent of having accommodating UI input scaling for the sm module already, why not similar for the sc module?
re. comment 24, I have spreadsheets with screeds of text in some cells, which I want to read in the formula bar, but in calc this is really difficult—the text is too small. If the suggestion in comment 24 could be done that would be amazing—this is the main thing keeping me using excel, where you can effectively adjust just this value independently of the font size in the cells and the menus/toolbars (options>when creating new workbooks>font size. This also changes the default font size in the cells, but you can then just adjust this back down in the home>font>size window—the formula bar will retain the font size you set in options). The text/labels on the toolbars etc are all fine. Thanks, otherwise, for such a splendid program.
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> Browsing bug reports about the formula bar, we can find reports and/or > requests for: > * more vertical space > * bigger font size > * smaller font size > * different font type > * possibility to scale/zoom I'd like to add to this list, the option of using a mono spaced font (also see #95406). Reading plain text in variable width is fine, but reading formulas in the same is an accessibility challenge for myself. I can appreciate the developers wanting the cleanest and least obtrusive solution without adding bloat, which sometimes means pushing back on user requests. However solving this problem so that everyone is happy will benefit LO as a product and as a community.