Bug Hunting Session
Bug 101646 - UI option "Scaling" was removed
Summary: UI option "Scaling" was removed
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: LibreOffice
Classification: Unclassified
Component: UI (show other bugs)
Version:
(earliest affected)
5.3.0.0.alpha0+
Hardware: All All
: low enhancement
Assignee: Not Assigned
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords: accessibility
: 67372 103646 106521 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks: a11y Options-Dialog
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2016-08-21 20:56 UTC by Regina Henschel
Modified: 2019-08-31 16:01 UTC (History)
22 users (show)

See Also:
Crash report or crash signature:


Attachments
manjaro xfce linux font size difference (27.08 KB, image/png)
2017-07-26 08:59 UTC, Spiros Georgaras
Details
ugly huge-font-ui on macos (490.70 KB, image/png)
2017-11-10 09:56 UTC, Jay Xu
Details

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Description Regina Henschel 2016-08-21 20:56:50 UTC
Up to LO5.2 there is the setting "Scaling" in Tools > Options > LibreOffice > View, section "User Interface". The corresponding setting in the Expert Configuration is org.openoffice.Office.Common > View > View, property Font Scaling.

I need this setting, when I teach LibreOffice and use a projector to show something in the UI. Without enlarging the menu font size the items are not readable from all positions in the classroom.

In LO5.3 this setting is gone totally. It doesn't bother me, if it is removed from the View tab in the dialog, as long as it is still available in the Expert Configuration. Removing it totally is bad.
Comment 1 m.a.riosv 2016-08-21 23:11:17 UTC
And I can't find any discussion or comments about this matter.

I think there are people using this option, so deleting it in options and even worse in expert configuration, doesn't look too much fine.
Comment 2 V Stuart Foote 2016-08-22 03:19:35 UTC
Believe that was Caolán's decision in

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=ec950f8ebb2745ccff2275dcc09d2034cd73dfeb

the feature looks to be refactored out.

And the associated Help was updated with
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/27754/

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=0eb754e971171c3a0fe76419a9830462d2958066
Comment 3 Caolán McNamara 2016-08-22 20:08:19 UTC
Yeah, it was deliberate. For the specific use case, does it not make more sense to enlarge the font size of the whole desktop and not one application within it ?
Comment 4 Regina Henschel 2016-08-22 20:22:23 UTC
(In reply to Caolán McNamara from comment #3)
> Yeah, it was deliberate. For the specific use case, does it not make more
> sense to enlarge the font size of the whole desktop and not one application
> within it ?

No, a desktop change is more complicated and has to be reverted each time because a PC in a classroom will be used by another teacher with a different subject in the next lesson. The font scaling of LibreOffice is my personal user setting and does not affect others and will still be there in my next lesson.
Comment 5 Thomas Hackert 2016-10-21 14:13:48 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 6 Regina Henschel 2016-10-21 16:28:11 UTC
The problem still exists in Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha1+
Build ID: 8a796410ec8f440b4163b15b928347c499da7a8f
CPU Threads: 4; OS Version: Windows 6.1; UI Render: default; 
TinderBox: Win-x86@42, Branch:master, Time: 2016-10-20_23:07:21
Locale: de-DE (de_DE); Calc: group

Hello Thomas, are you sure? This is not about icon size, but about the font size of the menus.
Comment 7 Caolán McNamara 2016-11-18 09:11:15 UTC
*** Bug 103646 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 8 Roman Kuznetsov 2016-11-18 16:27:10 UTC
Hi, Caolán. This option was removed in vain. Please, return it in LO. Customize font for OS and customize GUI in LibreOffice are two different things, which different use cases. Thx
Comment 9 V Stuart Foote 2016-11-18 17:43:24 UTC
No, removing the scaling was correct as it was affecting implementation of HiDPI support.

Believe same effect can/should be achieved with better integration with assistive technology "magnifier" tools of the OS.  And that would probably be the correct way for the project to go especially as HiDPI gains prominence.  

Believe transient exposure to a magnification tool, rather than scaling the whole UI, would have more practical application.
Comment 10 Roman Kuznetsov 2016-11-18 18:10:52 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #9)
> No, removing the scaling was correct as it was affecting implementation of
> HiDPI support.
> 
> Believe same effect can/should be achieved with better integration with
> assistive technology "magnifier" tools of the OS.  And that would probably
> be the correct way for the project to go especially as HiDPI gains
> prominence.  
> 
> Believe transient exposure to a magnification tool, rather than scaling the
> whole UI, would have more practical application.

you offer me to buy a new monitor with HiDPI? i don't have a lot of money for this.
There are a lot of people with bad vision, who use scaling of GUI. They all must to save up for the a new monitor?
you, before delete of option for implementation of HiDPI support, make first good customization of GUI.
Or we create LibreOffice not for users, and for developers?
Comment 11 Thomas Hackert 2016-12-04 13:44:34 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 12 Timur 2017-01-11 17:38:56 UTC
According to what Stuart wrote, this looks like WontFix?
There should be either that, either decision how to resolve
Comment 13 V Stuart Foote 2017-01-11 18:51:05 UTC
From UX perspective, I do not see requirement to restore this.
Comment 14 Roman Kuznetsov 2017-01-11 19:16:30 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #13)
> From UX perspective, I do not see requirement to restore this.

from usability for average users I see requirement to restore this.
Comment 15 LibreTraining 2017-02-14 02:39:13 UTC
I was using this to increase the font size to make screenshots easier to read.
Try documenting the navigator with any clarity with that tiny type.

Upscaling a screenshot is not an option as it even further reduces the quality (which is already bad enough).

My vote is bring it back.
Comment 16 brucehohl 2017-02-14 02:54:14 UTC
Just thought I might chime-in on this as I actually use this feature.

I think that the UI scaling feature remains relevant with the types of monitors in use today.  According to http://www.eizo.com/library/basics/pixel_density_4k/ HiDPI displays for computers have been offered since 2014 so even if such displays render this feature obsolete it will years before such displays are in the majority.  

With the average monitor in service today the various screen magnifying tools can produce mixed results where some things improve but others degrade.  On the other hand, the LO UI scaling feature and zoom feature work very well.  I even reported  bug 101371 related to this mainly because I think this is a quality feature worthy of continuation and maintenance at least until the next generation of display technology becomes common.

Also, ironically, 5.3 has added an scaling option for the sidebar icons.  Surely, if scaling for that UI component is important than it must also be important for the text menus. Text menus are important as they provide a level of program explore-ability "in plain English (or other language)" not possible with unfamiliar icons.  I beg for a reprieve for this feature :)
Comment 17 Heiko Tietze 2017-02-14 08:07:02 UTC
Magnifying, zooming and font scaling is up to the OS/DE. What other major program provides such a feature?
Comment 18 brucehohl 2017-02-14 14:09:35 UTC
> What other major program provides such a feature?
Exactly!!
This is a great feature not commonly found in other office software.  It allows the flexibility to configure the LO UI text independently of the OS/DE text which might be desired for any number of reasons. Choice is good. Among the key reasons I use Calc over Excel is that Calc offers a higher level of UI options and easily available customization.
Comment 19 V Stuart Foote 2017-02-14 14:21:48 UTC
Again, it was removed because it was poorly implemented in source/UI and was interfering with implementation of support for HiDPI.

Yes it could possibly be "restored", but better to redesign and implement a solution that is less of a patchwork and supportable with emerging graphics.

@Caolan, Kendy?
Comment 20 LibreTraining 2017-02-14 19:51:05 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17)
> Magnifying, zooming and font scaling is up to the OS/DE. What other major
> program provides such a feature?


Operating system global scaling is rarely a viable option because it has unintended or bad results on too many applications. Applications like Microsoft Word work well because they are created by the same developer and therefore well integrated with the OS zoom features. Other applications, not so much.
And often users don't want to scale everything in the OS (like me).

First applications that came to mind because I use them both ...

Adobe InDesign - UI Scaling setting - allows user to set the interface at 100%, 150%, or 200%.
This enables their users to make the UI scale choice based on the size and DPI of their own display.
Same with other Adobe products.

Vivaldi browser (based on Chrome) - User Interface Zoom setting - scale anywhere between 50% to 200% in 5% increments.

Many applications provide 3 sizes of icons - Inkscape, AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.


With all the different devices now, the ability for users to set the scaling for the interface would seem to be a requirement.

While the current menu scaling in v5.2 may not be optimal, it is better than nothing.
Comment 21 V Stuart Foote 2017-02-14 20:04:24 UTC
OK, we'll make this an enhancement of suitable priority.

If a dev wants to pick it up--IMHO it is worth doing, but not at the expense of other more pressing facets of the GUI for HiDPI desktops and mobile devices. Expect doing this correctly to reach all elements of the UI could be quite challenging.

But this might provide framework for implementing other useful scaling and zoom features, for example bug 105610.
Comment 22 Heiko Tietze 2017-02-14 20:57:44 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #21)
> OK, we'll make this an enhancement of suitable priority.

Please also remove needsUXEval when you think it's done. 

Besides the doubted use case it's hard to believe that such a feature outperforms what the OS/DE can do, across various platforms. Better we make sure the OS features work well if there is no problem with Word on Windows but LibreOffice.
Comment 23 Matt 2017-02-23 23:04:07 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #9)
> No, removing the scaling was correct as it was affecting implementation of
> HiDPI support.
> 
> Believe same effect can/should be achieved with better integration with
> assistive technology "magnifier" tools of the OS.  And that would probably
> be the correct way for the project to go especially as HiDPI gains
> prominence.  
> 
> Believe transient exposure to a magnification tool, rather than scaling the
> whole UI, would have more practical application.

It was affecting implementation of hidpi?  Why not leave it in until you can actually support hidpi?  In v5.3, hidpi support is terrible and incompatible with the built in scaling of Windows.  I relied on that setting to adjust the UI of libreoffice because it's the only application I run that doesn't scale nicely out of the box with the Windows scaling setting.
Comment 24 V Stuart Foote 2017-03-13 15:50:15 UTC
*** Bug 106521 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 25 walttheboss 2017-04-17 06:35:56 UTC
I am a teacher of Computer applications.  We use a very large variety of computers (desktops, laptops, virtual machines).  The ability for students to work together is greatly enhanced by scaling.  They can see each others formulas so much better. 

I am now forced to revert to 5.2 till this is solved.

PLEASE bring back the Scaling option in the UI as it is a fantastic feature.
Comment 26 walttheboss 2017-04-17 06:38:24 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 27 walttheboss 2017-04-17 06:41:31 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 28 walttheboss 2017-04-17 07:31:50 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 29 walttheboss 2017-04-17 07:34:25 UTC Comment hidden (obsolete)
Comment 30 Oliver Brinzing 2017-04-30 13:35:29 UTC
adding me cc
Comment 31 André Brait 2017-06-21 02:37:59 UTC
Adding to the cc list as well.

This annoys a lot. It's ok since I use Debian and we're still using the 5.2 branch, but when I use other distros that have the 5.3 branch it's unusable.

My real issue is the icons, though. They look just broken.
Comment 32 Heiko Tietze 2017-06-21 06:59:37 UTC
(In reply to André Brait from comment #31)
> My real issue is the icons, though. They look just broken.

Under Tools > Options > View you can control the icon size.
Comment 33 André Brait 2017-06-21 15:06:22 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #32)
> (In reply to André Brait from comment #31)
> > My real issue is the icons, though. They look just broken.
> 
> Under Tools > Options > View you can control the icon size.

I've tried that. The icons just look broken in different sizes. I'll post a screenshot as soon as I can get my hands on a live distro with 5.3.x. Kinda like if they had been upscaled by a factor of 1.5 using nearest neighborhood but in a wrong manner.

In 5.2, they look normal.
Comment 34 Spiros Georgaras 2017-07-26 08:59:29 UTC
Created attachment 134865 [details]
manjaro xfce linux font size difference
Comment 35 Spiros Georgaras 2017-07-26 09:03:43 UTC
Hi guys,

I understand that this was causing problems, because of its poor implementation, but...

Please, please, please, re-implement it!!!

LO font size is currently smaller that my desktop font size (see ss)

The font size difference is not that great, but it is enough to bother my aging eyes :-(

I'm on a manjaro xfce linux box, running fresh
Comment 36 Heiko Tietze 2017-07-26 09:46:58 UTC
(In reply to Spiros Georgaras from comment #35)
> LO font size is currently smaller that my desktop font size (see ss)

That's clearly NOTOURBUG, please check your theme. I'm running LXQt with three places to tweak the font: qt5,qt4,LX, where qt4 is responsible for the kde4 variant of LibreOffice (we do not have a Qt5 binding yet).
Comment 37 Spiros Georgaras 2017-07-26 10:30:02 UTC
It looks like you are right!!!

and thank you for your reply; it pointed me to the right direction!!!

I installed lxappearance, but changing the font with it made no difference...
But then, when i changed the font form xfce native app, LO font changed too!!!

So, yes "That's clearly NOTOURBUG"

Sorry for the noise...
Comment 38 Jay Xu 2017-11-10 09:56:53 UTC Comment hidden (off-topic)
Comment 39 alister.hood 2018-02-27 09:38:46 UTC
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #36)
> (In reply to Spiros Georgaras from comment #35)
> > LO font size is currently smaller that my desktop font size (see ss)
> 
> That's clearly NOTOURBUG, please check your theme. I'm running LXQt with
> three places to tweak the font: qt5,qt4,LX, where qt4 is responsible for the
> kde4 variant of LibreOffice (we do not have a Qt5 binding yet).

So Libreoffice is supposed to follow the system font size properly? Is this just with the "kde version"? I use the gtk2 "version". It does not work properly - fonts in some places are a very different size to others. It is most noticeable with a very low dpi and huge fonts (try setting your display dpi to 21 and your gtk font size to 52 to compensate). It almost seems like the dpi is only being taken into account in some places but not others.
This has caused desperate people to resort to workarounds like this: https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/71652/how-to-change-font-size-for-dialogs-not-just-menus/
Comment 40 unresponsive 2018-04-12 17:30:14 UTC
The power of this scaling feature to me is that you can move between any system/display and with one simple setting all your documents now display in a standard way with all your other systems/displays.   The coding might have been a compromise, but it’s worth a compromise.  Kudos to the guys that originally saw the value of this and got it done and made it work so well for so long.  Job well done.

Frustration makes the wine taste sweetest, the truth most bitter.
Comment 41 V Stuart Foote 2019-01-15 18:42:20 UTC
*** Bug 67372 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 42 Yury 2019-01-16 06:46:09 UTC
My apologies, but do the decision-makers even understand the issue raised here (and in #67372)?? For I, for example, did not understand at all the reason for closing #67372 (which, incidentally, is actually NOT a duplicate of this #101646), and I do not actually understand the argumentation for these options removal.

I *believe* the end-user *might* "legitimately" wish to independently change UI font face AND UI font size AND the scale of UI elements, to better suite one's current requirements on application *usability*.

The bulk of actual work is done in applications, not in desktop environments. And even applications may differ w/r to their requirements for the text display. 

When I'm working with a text or a diagram, I don't even get to see the desktop space, as the app's space is maximised. The OOO is multi-platform, I might work as a guest, with a portable installation, etc.

Now, one actually must have legible text in Writer/Draw menus and dialogs, as those are used frequently, as opposite to, say, web browser. (and no, countless toolbars or whatever they are called now--stripes? ribbons? do not decisively help here; I have many of those switched on, but only for addons; BTW, new LO icons are rather indistinguishable, both from each other and from background)

Also, in OOO you might want to make the graphic parts of dialogs (say, color or hatching samples) bigger, without tying those changes to the text size. Or you might want different UI font face and/or size. And you might want to make those changes just for the brief period, e.g., for the screen-cast, or when your eyes are tired, or when you work in sub-optimal lighting conditions, etc.

Now, I'm a OOO user with about 20 years of experience, principally doing lots of text with graphics. But I do not participate in the OOO development. Does my opinion actually count?
Comment 43 V Stuart Foote 2019-01-16 14:44:33 UTC
(In reply to Yury from comment #42)
> My apologies, but do the decision-makers even understand the issue raised
> here (and in #67372)?? For I, for example, did not understand at all the
> reason for closing #67372 (which, incidentally, is actually NOT a duplicate
> of this #101646), and I do not actually understand the argumentation for
> these options removal.
>...

bug 67373 was dragged out of WFM status for a user complaining of Calc input line font size--that is exactly bug 106521 already dup'd here. As noted in #67372 refactoring needed to restore UI control to scale menus and dialogs independent of OS/DE control is a substantial undertaking. It was stripped out to support OS/DE control needed for emerging DE (Waynland, gtk3, etc) as well as for HiDPI; restoring it requires NEW development effort.
Comment 44 Stefano 2019-01-17 19:37:06 UTC
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #43)
> [..] restoring it requires NEW development effort.

Given the number of discussions scattered in the forums, and bug report duplicates here, all pointing in this direction, it seems clear that many people are affected by the issue.

The question is: given the large number of cases and arguments provided by users, would a new development effort be worth?

(I would argue that's the case)
Comment 45 Roger 2019-04-17 21:49:03 UTC
Windows UI scaling is neither clean nor helpful; it enlarges EVERYTHING, not just the App UI. Even if I do enlarge the fonts alone (which is possible in the OS), that enlarges ALL the fonts, not just the font of the formula bar (which is truly what I need; 9-pt Segoe UI ... &*^*@#$%^!!!).

Currently I'm using a 3rd party utility (from Wintools) to change a category of fonts (this has some side effects, which I can live with) to make the formula bar usable.

The ability to scale the UI separately from the data display, which I understand went away for reasons, was a highly useful setting, and I'd appreciate it being returned to us users in some way, shape, or form.

I think scaling should be pursued as a set of settings. Menu, toolbars, input boxes, default font sizes, and so forth. In fact, if LO copied Excel's choice, that the default font size for a new spreadsheet is the default input font size, that wouldn't be horrid.

Thanks for all your work in development, btw; don't want to minimize that.
Comment 46 Alex ARNAUD 2019-06-27 12:30:03 UTC
This regression highly impact accessibility because making user able to increase size of the interface was a great advantage of LibreOffice compared to Microsoft Office. Also as I understand, LibreOffice design team seems to want to make LibreOffice customisable and adaptable to the user needs.

Best regards,
Alex.
Comment 47 V Stuart Foote 2019-06-27 13:06:55 UTC
(In reply to Alex ARNAUD from comment #46)
> This regression highly impact accessibility because making user able to
> increase size of the interface was a great advantage of LibreOffice compared
> to Microsoft Office. Also as I understand, LibreOffice design team seems to
> want to make LibreOffice customisable and adaptable to the user needs.

@Alex, this was a conscious developer decision to prune code of an unsupportable feature--in effect for the 5.3, 5.4, 6.0, 6.1, 6.2 and now 6.3 major releases. 
We can not reasonably now call it a regression as it is long gone.

Yes it would be a good enhancement, and worth reimplementing. And, yes it could be considered an Assistive Technology for our low vision users, but best done in context with other needed improvements (like bug 105610).

Refactoring to reimplement UI scaling in a modern fashion (with HiDPI and render engine support) would be a substantial development effort.
Comment 48 bchemnet 2019-08-05 15:03:36 UTC
I recently updated from 6.1.4 to 6.3 rc2 (Debian XFCE).  Now my formula bar font appears to be ~12 point, considerably larger than the previous version.

And while I completely understand why the comments above are asking for a larger font, I actually now want my old style back, as the new font and size appears ugly on my screen.  As far as I can tell, it is *not* pulling the information from my system UI in any way, as it matches nothing else in my system display nor in the Libreoffice interface.

Could we please just have the option to set the font & size of this bar?  Even if no other scaling is implemented (I understand the arguments against it above), is there a technical reason that this cannot be user set in isolation?  Obviously it can be changed at some stage during software build, so where exactly is it being set?
Comment 49 William Gathoye 2019-08-17 11:00:55 UTC
Hi bchemnet,

I assume you are still using XFCE 4.12 based on GTK2? Since the GTK2 VCL toolkit is deprecated for LibreOffice, TDF won't maintain this old branch. Please migrate to the GTK3 toolkit instead.

Good news ! XFCE 4.14 based on GTK3 has been released some times ago. Just install it from the sid or backports repo and please let us know if this helps.

Regards,